[ SECRET POST #2810 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2810 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[Star Trek: The Original Series]


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07.
[Free Eternal Summer]


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10.



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11. [WARNING for rape]

[Orphan Black]


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12. [WARNING for suicide]

[Patch Adams/Dead Poets Society/What Dreams May Come]













Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #401.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[philstar22]

Considering the era when she lived and the fact that she is the person who would have kept the US out of WWII and allowed Hitler to win, I just can't get behind it. I completely agree with the sentiment, but not her application of that sentiment. Because I believe in a peace that includes justice. And sometimes that means fighting is the only right course of action. Violent solutions should always be the very last resort, but sometimes they are the only option. That idea of providing everyone hope and a common future has to mean everyone.

I mean, the speech is beautiful. But my feelings for the character color it for me when I watch that episode.

[(Anonymous)]

The text that OP quoted didn't include anything about the war, though.

I think it's also important to remember that Edith didn't have all the information that we did.

[philstar22]

No, the OP didn't. What I'm saying is that I can't share the OP's love of the speech because my feelings on Keeler color how I view the speech even though I agree with the the speech.

[(Anonymous)]

Again, though, is it fair to judge Edith as though she knew as much about what was going on in the war (the atrocities being committed) as we do today?

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Her speech was made in 1930 or 1931, years before she could have known there would be a war.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

That's a good point -- I just checked the episode script and it would have been 1930 when the episode took place. And given that Edith lived through the aftermath and horrific loss of life caused by WWI and the 1918 flu pandemic, not to mention the recent Depression, it's not surprising that she's a pacifist.

[(Anonymous)]

You bring this up every time Edith Keeler is mentioned and frankly, it's getting pretty damn tedious. We get it. You don't like her for daring to not have 20/20 hindsight and post-WWII understanding of foreign policy. Mention that in a secret or discussion that is actually ABOUT the war.

[philstar22]

I'm stating my opinion. Not saying everyone has to agree. I know I"m alone in my opinions. The secret was about the speech, I'm saying why I can't enjoy it and that I think that what those words mean to me and what Keeler meant by them are two different things.

And as for the hindsight thing, of course she didn't know anything. But there were enough hints that HItler was not a good person and totally willing to commit atrocities that I feel like I can't respect any point of view that advocates for pacifism in the face of that.

[(Anonymous)]

Even then, though…how can you judge Edith when we have terrible atrocities being committed in the world today that we absolutely do know about and nothing is done?

North Korea for example?

Would you support starting a war given the scale of atrocities?

I just feel that you're judging Edith quite harshly when, given her ignorance of the gravity of the situation, she's far less culpable than anyone today would be, given our access to information.

[philstar22]

War should be the last option, sure. And I hate that the world doesn't do enough about things that happen today (and frankly how especially the US makes things worse). We do have structures today like the UN that should be dealing with those things (though they don't) that weren't around at the time.

Maybe the US got Keeler's point of view completely wrong in what it ultimately ended up believing and that she would have been totally for getting involved in WWII once she knew what Hitler (and Japan for that matter) was doing. But we don't get that from the episode.

[(Anonymous)]

There was the League of Nations during Edith's time though.

I think the episode DOES make the point that Edith's view is naive, in some senses, but that's because her awareness of the situation is naive too. If the episode supported her position, I think your criticism of her would be more fair.

[philstar22]

I do feel like the episode holds her up as an ideal, though. It tries to have it both ways. On the one hand we see all the bad consequences, but at the same time she's portrayed as this amazing, nearly perfect person and we do get the sense that we're supposed to admire her.

[(Anonymous)]

The episode emphasizes her views for the tragedy of her death is more what I'd say. She is TOO idealistic. That's why she had to die -- because she was naive about the true scope of the situation (like a lot of Americans were, though, in fairness) -- and her desire to save lives and keep out of conflict would have eventually done more harm then good.

That she's portrayed as nearly perfect is twofold:
1. We see her largely from Kirk's perspective (who is in love with her)
2. It emphasizes that her view is something to strive for but that we must sometimes compromise on and that, even if it's the right thing to do, there's going to be a price to pay

OP

[(Anonymous)]

In addition, please consider the context of her speech. She made it in a time and in an era when millions in the United States - in the world, even - had lost all hope for a better future and saw only misery and poverty stretching on for years to come.

That was the Great Depression of the 1930s.

For her to have that sense of determined optimism about the ability of humanity to transcend itself in that era is pretty damned awesome, in my view.

[(Anonymous)]

The episode was written by Harlan Ellison, who is Jewish and definitely has strong ideas about the Holocaust and the need to end it.

I think the point of Edith Keeler is the tragedy that pacifism doesn't end the likes of Hitler. That war was a brutal necessity, when the ideal would have been so much better had it worked.

[(Anonymous)]

In 1930 Hitler wasn't anywhere near power and few people took him remotely seriously.

[(Anonymous)]

damn, how often is Edith Keeler mentioned?

I mean, I don't know what circles of fandom you're in, but I always thought this wasn't one of the most commonly talked about episodes? But I'm not really active in the Trek fandom, so idk

[(Anonymous)]

mte.

[(Anonymous)]

What? I thought The City on the Edge of Forever was generally considered one of the best Episodes?:/

[cushlamochree]

I don't think the speech is necessarily incompatible with that approach. I think her character is complicated by the context, but the part that's admirable is the ideal as an ideal, and that's what the speech is really all about, and really what TOS-era Trek is all about.

[philstar22]

And that's where I don't think pacifism is the ultimate ideal. I think justice is the ultimate ideal. A complete lack of conflict would be nice, but other things come before that. And her words include that when talking about feeding the hungry and such and should mean that, but that isn't what it means to her.

[cushlamochree]

But I think that is what her ultimate ideal is. I don't agree with her means of putting into practice, her political goals, but I think justice and peace together are pretty clearly the ultimate ideal being invoked in the speech. And as ideals, I can appreciate those. And I don't think it's a vicious fault on her part, either.

[(Anonymous)]

I quite enjoy the speech, but have a similar niggle in the back of my head when reading the secret.