[ SECRET POST #2948 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2948 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #421.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[sarillia]

I'm not someone who lectures people about their preferences, but what baffles me is how so many people think that a person's attitude toward certain fictional people has absolutely nothing to do with their attitude toward the real people they represent. I don't think those attitudes are always exactly the same but there is often some connection. I'm not going to make assumptions about people based on the fiction they like, but if we're talking in abstractions rather than picking on individual people, I can't get behind the total reality/fiction divide where neither one informs or reflects the other at all.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with this (though I suspect it's not a popular opinion). It's the main reason I'm not comfortable with those who rave about shota, for example, or sideeye those who use rape as an all-purpose verb in videogame chat.

[kallanda_lee]

Fair enough, but *what* connection? Because that's tricky to speculate.

I mean let's take the old rape fantasy thing, it's not that people with rape fantasies = rapists. SOME of them might take it to the bdsm scene, but most even don't, and just keep it to fiction.

So what, then, realistically, does that say about a person?

[sarillia]

I don't know. I don't claim to know. I just think it's worth thinking about instead of immediately denying it.

I think it's highly individual though, so the same interests wouldn't say the same thing about different people because it's extremely complicated with personal history and larger culture and all kinds of things interacting and influencing the preference.

But I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. If other people disagree, which they do, that's fine. I just can't say I understand their point of view. I feel like the whole reason people get so invested in fiction is because of its connection to real life, even when it's escapism, so to deny that it's connected to real life is to deny its power and importance.

[kallanda_lee]

I actually tend to agree there's a connection to real life. I just have problems with people who draw very simplified conclusions or play armchair psychologist (which it seems you really aren't!).

[sarillia]

I have huge issues with simplistic armchair psychology. I have some friends who are probably tired of hearing about it. I'm definitely not advocating that sort of thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh get off your high horse with your pseudo-intellectual bullcarp.

[(Anonymous)]

The problem with drawing connections between people's sexual fantasies and their real life tastes is that there are a hundred reasons why a person could have that particular fantasy, so any conclusions drawn are essentially meaningless.

One of the reasons I have my own particular fantasies is as a way to replay events from my own life, but from different points of view. So my fics are connected to real life, but not the way it might first seem. For instance, I'll write rape fantasy, but from the point of view of the rapist, and I'll make the story deliberately arousing. The last part isn't by accident. Eroticising the story turns it into entertainment, and I'm the one in control of it.

So on the surface, it may seem like because I'm writing about a rapist and making the rape sexy, I must be endorsing it. It's the opposite. Overwhelmingly my readers are female and I assume a lot of them have been assaulted themselves. I sometimes get comments about them feeling guilty that they were aroused by my stories. I tell them it's okay. I think it's a healthy reaction, at least at first. These kinds of stories are good way of reflecting at a safe distance, although I hope nobody's reading diet is 100% rapefic.

I assume there are people who write rape fic who actually want to rape in real life, purely because statistically some people are real life rapists and some people write rape fic, and sometimes these two must coincide. I somehow doubt that there's a lot of them. Writing is a self-reflective business.

However, the reaction that rapefic often gets is that it's morally wrong, and that people who read it are sick and creepy. Rape itself is, yes. Not the fics, per se. That's why I'm dubious when people insist there's a connection between fantasies and real life. They mostly mean in far too literal a fashion.

[(Anonymous)]

Using myself as an example (sorry if this is TMI), but I know I have rape fantasies because I feel really unattractive. I've never had anyone compliment my looks or appearance. And so the idea that a man could desire me sexually so powerfully that he literally couldn't control himself is a fantasy of mine.

Even if, in real life, I'd of course be terrified and never want that to happen.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, that's just expressed my thoughts exactly. This is a huge reason why I'll sometimes read trashy romance novels or dub-con, because of that wish fulfillment aspect. Again, with you on not wanting it IRL, but as a fantasy, definitely.

[(Anonymous)]

Speaking as a straight guy, I think it's a goddamned shame you've never gotten any compliments. I know a little bit what that's like--men almost never get complimented on our looks--but being a guy means that I haven't had the same societal conditioning about beauty that women get subjected to.

If it helps, I bet if we met in person I'd think you were lovely, and so would a lot of other guys. Just that those are often the same guys who are too shy to give compliments easily.

[(Anonymous)]

Men usually don't get complimented on their looks? I never knew that.

That explains the reaction I get from my male friends when I tell them they're looking good that day. If I'm one of the few people doing it, if any, no wonder they look puzzled, and then later kind of ashamed-happy. I thought it was just because I'm really ham-fisted in the way I put things sometimes.

I'm not sure that I might be more careful now about doing it now with men. They might take it the wrong way.

Women compliment each other all the time. It's one of the first things you do when you meet up with a friend. "Wow, your hair looks great!" etc. It can make me feel great for hours afterwards, if not days. The only thing comparable is good feedback on ebay. "A+ customer!" I'll really take any compliment I can get, won't I?

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, don't be too shy about complimenting men. Like you say, it feels incredibly validating and makes you happy; why not share that experience with a dude? We like being happy too. :)

[(Anonymous)]

You've summed up in a nutshell why I don't have rape fantasies. I find the idea of men not being able to control themselves pretty unpleasant, as it was a lie I was fed during my teenage years, like the myth of "blue balls" and how women are responsible for them just by existing anywhere near a man.

As for the rest of your comment, I just want to tell you that my own family told me I was ugly all the time I lived with them and for many years afterwards. They told me that nobody would want me because I was so repulsive. It was complete horseclap. There's always going to be at least one person who finds you beautiful. It might take a long time to find them and it's lonely in the process, but they're out there. Just keep meeting people and putting yourself out there. Classes, teams, volunteering, parties, events etc. Friends of friends are the best way I found but you've got to meet those friends somewhere first.

[(Anonymous)]

Arguably though, the majority of people with rape fantasies have fantasies of being raped rather than being the rapist.

And that, IMO, does say something about how women especially internalize their sexuality as something that they need someone else to force out of them for them to be able to express it.

So no, clearly having a rape fantasy =/= rapist (or even condoning the RL act etc.) but it does have other RL impact that could, potentially, be to their detriment, either in sexual ways or purely in how they view themselves in the social hierarchy.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with everything you've said.

Personally, I don't have a problem with any individuals who have rape fantasies, but I'm bothered with overall trends I see in say, porn or romance fiction. But it's hard to criticize those trends without people taking it personally.

And I do think the prevalence of the popularity of male on female rape and the dominant man/submissive woman paradigm is a problem. I have yet to meet a sexually submissive man who is not full of shame about his desires/considers himself a pussy etc. It's pretty sad.

[(Anonymous)]

I think there's definitely some connection. It may be very indirect, but we're all influenced in our tastes by our experiences and our environments in one way or another, and I find it strange that many people claim there's a clear dividing line between a person's whole and the things they like (or, conversely, don't like). We all bring a fuckton of baggage even to the most trivial things like fanfics; I find it odd that there'd be a denial of that.

[(Anonymous)]

Agree. Fiction doesn't exists in a vacuum.

[(Anonymous)]

I tend to believe it can be fairly far apart. I have a sneeze fetish. Fictional depictions of people needing to sneeze, trying to hold back, the release, are all very very sexy. Even fictional characters in movies and TV sneezing is nice.

Real people sneezing in real life? Nothing. Not a hint of interest.

And I have no clue where it would come from or what armchair psychologists would say about it. I'm sure there are others with the same fetish who do enjoy it in real life, but because of it I'm a lot more likely to believe someone when they say they have a fantasy for something that they'd hate in real life.

I can understand why they would think it.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that people say that their attitudes toward certain fictional people has nothing to do with their attitudes toward the real people they represent because when some people say that of course there's a connection, they imply or assume that it's the worse one (if you read dub-con/non-con, you're either a rapist, going to be a rapist, or glorifying rape; if you read underage, you're a pedophile; if you read about werewolves/animorphs/whathaveyou, you're into bestiality; if you read gender switches, you're homophobic/transphobic/misogynist).

I think that a lot of people are fascinated by the exploration of shifting power dynamics in fiction (your truly included), but actually experiencing some of it in real life can range from uncomfortable or irritating to horrifying or rage-inducing.

Re: I can understand why they would think it.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that's probably where the knee-jerk "I am totally divorced from my tastes!!" defensiveness comes in; while those worst-case-scenario connections may be true in a tiny minority of people, the vast majority do have that distinction between fiction and reality.

I think the connection is generally much more tangential than that. i.e. their attitudes in a broader sense, the things they'll tolerate and the things they won't. The abrbitrary lines they will or won't draw, the judgements they will or won't make. If there's a distinct trend in someone's behavior then while it isn't going to mean they'd condone bad things, then it does say something about e.g. where they prioritize that 'bad thing' in their lives. And that is a product of everything that's made them who they are in that moment. There's no way to unlink that from anything we do as human beings.

Like you, I have a thing for power dynamics in fic I read or write. I think sometimes that I like to explore it because in many ways throughout my life I've felt powerless, or witnessed abuses of power, and in fiction I like to see how things play out when the power shifts, or when the perceived power isn't necessarily what it seems (or with whom it seems). I think it also reflects on my attitudes towards authority and power in general, my stubbornness and rebelliousness. While I have zero interest in exerting or experiencing those things IRL, it still stems from things that have formed me, so there's no way I can detach that from the stuff I enjoy reading or writing.

Re: I can understand why they would think it.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Yes, exactly. There is always some connection, some reasons for what you like, what you will and won't read, and where your lines are. And if someone assumes that they know exactly what that connection or those reasons are without talking to you, it can be really annoying or even disturbing. So it is not at all surprising to me that some people deny any connection out of defensiveness or aversion to said assumptions.