fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2951 ]

[ SECRET POST #2951 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2951 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[The To-Do List, Brandy/Willy]

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03.

[Avatar: Legend of Korra]

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04.

[The Amazing World of Gumball]

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05.

[Agents of Shield]

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06.

[Game of Thrones]

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07.

[Galavant]

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08.

[Soukyuu no Fafner Exodus]

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09.

[Jamie Dornan from "The Fall"]

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10.

(Neil Gaiman)

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #422.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Serious question: Are honest-to-God neo-nazis allowed to march in the streets for real in the States? Are you really allowed to, for example, march in public with signs about racial purity and/or swastikas and shout about exterminating the undesirables? Are there really no limits?

As long as you get a parade permit, yes.

Counter-demonstrators are also allowed. Usually the counter-demonstration is larger by several orders of magnitude.

But here you wouldn't get a permit if the aim of your march or anything about your behaviour indicated that you're going to do any of such things in public (putting aside the swastika issue, which here is outlawed completely for pretty good historical reasons and I can't imagine it being any different), because that's incitement to violence. You can parade against a group if you do it in a reasonably peaceful manner and with a permit, and you can express some awful opinions, but there's always some limit to it and the limit is basically whether you're calling for acctual violent actions to take place or not - if you are, you're march is declared illegal on these grounds and you are asked to go home.

There's a point where speech does become illegal because it's an incitement to violence (or more specifically, imminent lawless action) - the canonical example is that you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.

The practical difference seems to be that it's not enough for the speech to advocate violence. It has to be actually likely to immediately cause it. You can talk as much as you want about it as long as you stay away from actually saying "do this now".

So our laws are probably pretty the same, all things consider (minus maybe tha ban on Nazi symbols).

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2015-02-02 00:53 (UTC) - Expand

Kinda makes me glad we have 18c here. American freedom of speech is so baffling sometimes.

18c tl:dr a march like this would be not allowed.

Offensive behaviour because of race, colour or national or ethnic origin
(1) It is unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if:

(a) the act is reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people; and

(b) the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the people in the group.

See, free speech is considered one of the inherent values of this country, so that kind of law is something to actively resist. A lot of us (myself included) are glad we DON'T have that.

I guess where I get stuck is the idea that people value the ability to say whatever you want about another group. It's baffling in that I find hate groups vilifying other groups as incredibly socially harmful but your culture is alright with allowing them to parade or whatever 0-0 c

Can't get over that *scratches head and side eyes a little*

???? ??? ???????

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2015-02-02 20:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2015-02-03 19:27 (UTC) - Expand

we still have things kind of like that. for example, you can get charged for making death threats towards someone even if it's just verbal/written. and things like vandalizing someone's business/residence/what have you with racial slurs or things of that nature can be considered hate crimes, which can be prosecuted

Glad you have that at least, but still baffled and a little creeped out o-o

Yeah, I like that Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms has something similar that means you don't have the right to spew hate speech.

In theory, yeah, there are a lot fewer limits. Obviously actually assaulting people is legally actionable.

Localities have tried to shut them down, but their have been lawsuits to overturn those laws. The principle is supposed to be that if anti-Semites and Nazis can march, than, say, anti-Scientology, Communist, and racial equality groups can too.

In practice, though, the white supremacists have their little march, behave themselves, and go home.

Then later a leftist demonstration, depending on the locality, will either be allowed to demonstrate and be just as ignored, or get accused of lawless behavior and be harassed violently by the police.

The federal government can't stop them. Freedom of Speech is guaranteed by the Constitution.

Local government can make them get a temporary event permit and they might have to get the police involved to keep the peace (I mean, my city had the cops double check the route of a marathon for charity. I'm sure that if some Nazis showed up, the cops would want to be informed).

I'm trying to figure out how it compares to what we have here - because it's not like we don't have the freedom of speech in our constitution too. And we do have nationalist, racist and fascist-like organizations which can march through a city, but theoretically any direct call for a violent action is illegal - you can monologue away about all the vices of your chosen hated group, but you can't acctually just shout out loud to your supporters about killing them. Don't you have any limits/rules like these?

Err, I don't think any of these groups can say they are going to kill people or whatever. America has freedom of speech (which includes any ideology, racist, sexist, whatever)... but that ends when someone's life or the community is in danger. Obviously you can't say you're going to kill someone, that counts as a threat and is taken seriously. Or if you say you're going to blow up somewhere.

Though I'm not sure, you might be able to say something general and non direct, like "these group deserves to die" because that doesn't indicate you actually are going to do something... but idk.

You can say "We should kill all the people". You can't say "let's kill them all right now, come on, I'm serious, go do it."

yeah you can't say, "let's go burn down a synagogue," but you can wave Nazi flags, and say "Hitler was right," or whatever it is they say as long as your not making a specific call to violence.

As far as I understand... not a lawyer never been around when that kind of rally is on >_> (thankfully I don't think they happen in my city much at all).

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

Hate speech isn't protected. Nor is slander, nor calls to violence. How exactly that's administered, I'm not sure. I imagine it varies from state to state, and possibly even locality to locality.

Depending on what your interpretation of "hate speech" and "protected" are, and yes, hate speech is protected; for instance, it is protected in the U.S. as long as it does not become hate action.

I've lived in the U.S. for more than 35 years, and it's still a little gobsmacking to me, as someone born in Canada. But after all this time, it makes a certain type of sense - for this country.

(no subject)

iceyred - 2015-02-03 00:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

kaffy_r - 2015-02-03 00:45 (UTC) - Expand

You can't talk about wanting to kill any person or group of people -- but you can talk a dog's legs off about how they should go back to their own country/province/planet, and about how they are tarnishing the lily white pure Murkin blood and bedsheets.

Any call to action regarding the assault against a person, verbal or physical, is illegal. Any call to action to boycott, block access to (suBtly, of course), or otherwise disrupt business without actually going in a throwing shit around, how awful "they" are as a people, how "they" are causing x, y, and z problems in society is not illegal. But you cannot (by law, not necessarily in practice) call on your supporters to go fuck shit up, or otherwise suggest what specific actions ought be taken against a person or group.

And yes, you can fly swastikas.

I've yet to read about a neo-nazi or Klan march where the racists were not outnumbered at least 10 to 1, if not 100 one 1 by counter-protesters. Very little galvanizes black churches and jewish community groups like a racist march. At least in the states, these marches backfire to become a show of solidarity against racism.

And it's not the ones who march that you need to worry about.

Neo-nazis yes.

Ferguson protesters no.

The US is fucked up.

The furguson protests did in fact get violent, so that's not the best comparison. Usually the Nazi's don't do much more then march because they are aware there's folks just waiting for them to fuck up, and their numbers are a lot smaller.

Now, that doens't mean a double standard isn't in effect. A better question is why a bunch of drunk college kids after a big sports game can vandalize shit and the cops don't come out in military gear as they did to the Ferguson protests.

Edited 2015-02-02 04:50 (UTC)

They can't? At least, at my state university, the cops used to come out with the knee-knockers and the tear gas and the rubber bullets pretty frequently during football season. Less so with the rubber bullets after they put someone's eye out, but the off-campus neighborhoods used to reek of tear gas on Mondays.

Don't, not cant. At least in some other places. Where are you, if I might ask?