fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2998 ]

[ SECRET POST #2998 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2998 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Archer, linked for cartoon nudity/sex]

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30. [ SPOILERS for Kingsman ]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #428.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I agree with everything in this secret. As a fanfic writer myself, I've always been so annoyed with other writers who can't take critique, because I've always done it without chucking a tantrum since I was 12 years old. So all the excuses, "you hurt my feelings!" and "I'm only young!" it's all bullshit. Critique still hurts my feelings but you gotta suck it up if you put your work out there. If your doing it "just for fun," then fucking email it to your friends, don't post it in public where everyone is ALLOWED, ENCOURAGED AND EXPECTED to critique it.

No one is expected to critique fanfic, nor are they encouraged. Feedback is encouraged, yes, but "feedback" is not always criticism, constructive or otherwise.

I think your last point is the most relevant -- in many fandoms, critique isn't expected or encouraged. If you want more than the most generic remarks then you have to virtually beg people for real concrit.

The general tacit agreement in a lot of fandoms is that unless you're pretty certain a writer truly wants it and will take it well, you just don't leave concrit. At all.

"The general tacit agreement in a lot of fandoms is that unless you're pretty certain a writer truly wants it and will take it well, you just don't leave concrit. At all."

Changing "in a lot of fandoms" for "some specific fandom circles" would make that sentence true, but as it's? No, it's not like that.

AYRT

I've found it's so much rarer to find "specific fandom circles" that are okay with crit. Most of them aren't, from BNFs to newbies, from massive movie fandoms to obscure anime fandoms. It's rare enough that it's surprising to find someone who'll actively say they want critique and they want to improve.

People want feedback, but surely you're not naive enough to think that they actually mean concrit when they say that, are you?

I'm not sure which fandoms you're in where crit is the generally accepted rule, but I think you'll find you're the exception in this case.

(ayrt)

The thing is, fandom is more that AO3/tumblr/LJ/DW and others sites can be very different, since some fandom spaces (specially AO3) are pretty much dominated by the cult of nice.

In most other places, concrit is maybe not encouraged, but somehow expected and even the people who dislike getting it don't make a big deal of it.
In some others, concrit is extremely encouraged (I have been in some forums that have rules about members only allowed to comment on fics if they leave concrit).

AYRT

And you don't think that forums like that are the exception?

Fandom may be more than AO3/tumblr/LJ/DW in your eyes, but it's naive to ignore the fact that those places still represent the vast majority of it. You may not like it, but numbers don't lie. Smaller archives, members-only forums and sites, those things aren't even on the radar for the majority of fanwork creators today. Newer fans don't even remember personal fansites or fanlistings. That isn't the culture most fanworks are being created in today.

So yes, yours are the "specific fandom circles" in this discussion.

(ayrt)

Not really, because some sites I frequent don't know about AO3 (and some do and don't care).

AO3 et all are big and yet are at the same times more insular than most people notice. This is specially true when it comes to fandoms that aren't (American) tv and movies.

(And just for the record I'm talking only about English speaking fandom, though if we talk about fandom in other languages the culture[and sites] vary even more)

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2015-03-21 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2015-03-21 02:05 (UTC) - Expand

Please share some of these sites and forums for the writers who seek concrit.

And also to see how many people besides you have actually heard of them.

What you describe sound more like private writing groups, where of course the rules around concrit and what kind of feedback is desired/acceptable are different (and usually aren't tacit; my old writing group, now defunct, had the rules of posting feedback as the very first thing you saw.)

Yeah, I hear this "well in some places concrit is always welcome!!!" argument a lot, and I just really want to know specifically where these people hang out.

If you want, bring the subject in a few days in GCs and I'll link some of those sites (most of the are forums and some of them are not exactly small).

I don't want to do it right now tho, with all the negativity in this thread.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2015-03-21 03:45 (UTC) - Expand

+1

If they really want to publish in public, they can easily say "I don't care about concrit so don't criticize me anymore" as an answer to concrit and move on. If they're doing it for fun and don't care about not being perfect (or even good), what's the big deal?

Or how about this: if you think your critique will hurt someone's feelings, don't fucking post it. What do you get out of it, other than feeding your need to complain and possibly some immature drive to be right? Most critique is worse than the fics they complain about anyway.

The students who reviewed the author's story were perfectly polite and civil, the author pissed their pants and acted like they shot her dog. Sure, sometimes people just flame and insult a fanfic cause they're assholes, but most critique are helpful and polite. Sure it hurts your feelings knowing you did something wrong, but that's what happens in real life. People point out when your doing something wrong so you can do it better next time.

I don't buy that. Polite and civil doesn't open up with any form of "I don't know what this is about'.

Okay, firstly, I read the comments the students left, and really, they weren't especially helpful at all. But that aside, why is it so hard to accept that people don't want to hear what they did wrong? And before we get into the old discussion of "If they put it in a public space, people are allowed to criticize": YES. You are allowed to, free speech and all. Doesn't necessarily mean you should.

The thing is fanfiction is a hobby. Sure, some people might do it to improve their writing, but the vast majority of authors does it for fun and they share it with other people, because they think they might like it. That's pretty great if you ask me. And since you are not paying for it, nobody is forcing you to read or to comment, why would anyone leave unsolicited criticism? If you don't like it, move on. No reason to upset the author.

I really don't get why people are so hellbent on insisting that fanfic authors should take criticism, because it might help them. Maybe they don't want help, maybe they just want to continue having fun. Like, if someone invites you inside their house and you see their crappy paintings you don't start telling them what they could do better. If you meet someone on the street with a handknit pullover you don't tell them what they did wrong (unless of course for some reason they want your opinion). No one would do that, because that is fucking rude. Why is it so hard to apply this to fanfic?

If FF writers don't want to read criticism, then they shouldn't post their stuff on a platform that explicitly encourages feedback (like FF.net or A03). Form a new site that enables writers just to post stories. People can read them and enjoy them. No feedback means no bad reviews. Simple as that.

I always make sure to say what the author did good and what they need to improve in my reviews, if I don't have anything good to say then I don't review them. And it's quite sad you think critique is immature and just complaining. So are film reviewers immature? A book review just complaining? Do the only reviews you accept on your work blind praise and anything slightly negative you scorn at? A teacher gave you a bad mark and told you how to get better, so their just immature and want to complain in your eyes?

Those are reviews of professionals. As in, their job, which they are paid for. Professional crit is something else entirely, as you well know.

Don't be obtuse--you know the differences.

Okay that's a fair point and I'll take it. But I just think that on places like fanfiction where people are encouraged to give well-rounded critique in the review box, people will leave critique and it's not as mean-spirited and immature as this thread is making it out to be. If someone leaves in their bio or summary that they don't want critique, okay fine, I won't, but if they don't, I assume they'd appreciate a well-rounded piece of feedback. I'm coming from a place where I want to help them out, not a place where I want to complain and I see many of my own critiques in the same light.

This is my issue with unsolicited crit. I used to give it all the time, and then I realized that all I was doing was wasting my time and hurting feelings. Even if I gave some good advice, there's an extremely low chance that it sank in for the people who needed it the most, so what's the point? The point was stroking my own ego and stirring shit, pretty much.

Even if someone has good intentions with the crit they leave, with no ulterior motive at all, they need to learn to save their breath for the people who actually want it. There are tons of people out there who beg for crit but never get it.

I stopped when I realized all I was doing was complaining about my frustration that their fic wasn't my fic, and trying to get them to change it to something I found more acceptable. It wasn't a conscious ulterior motive, but that's what it boiled down to. It was horribly entitled and, regardless of the actual quality of the advice, it quite obviously didn't go down very well with anyone because I was being a tactless dick. Now that I recognize it for what it was, I notice it often -- a lot of concrit is just "if I was writing this I'd do it this way, so you need to do it this way too even though you're your own person with your own ideas and ways of expressing them."

These days if something like that truly bothers me, then I just write my own take on the premise. Much more gratifying.

On fanfiction, when you write out a review, they literally encourage you to make it a well rounded critique pointing out the good and where they can improve. I'd call that being encouraged and expected to give good feedback, which includes parts to improve. Again, if you want to show your writing somewhere without anyone telling you where you need improvement, show your mother, you'll just get blind praise like you want. Posting it in a public forum, no-one is entitled to praise at your feet at all, you'll get told the truth and you can act like a baby over it or you can take it on the chin, its your choice. Don't want this? Don't post in public forums.

HI OP.

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