fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3030 ]

[ SECRET POST #3030 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3030 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #433.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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my personal assumptions in the scenario you're talking about wouldn't have much to do with class at all

Uh huh. Which is why you've been so forthcoming about what image that sentence paints in your mind.

Here's what I'm seeing anon: yet another spoiled, class-privileged arsehole who will attempt to use use any hair-splitting or weasel words they can to get out of owning up to the fact that they're using a word that hurts and oppresses a group of marginalized and stereotyped people.

Who won't admit that they have no fucking clue what it's like to be poor lower class, and how that word impacts lower class people.

Who finds their right to keep using a slur as much as they like, more important than making fandom a welcoming place to lower-class fans.

Well, uh, I disagree, obviously, and I don't think you're seeing correctly. But I also doubt that there's anything I can do to convince you you're wrong, except agree with you, and I don't agree with you, so I think we find ourselves at an impasse.

Listen, I'm completely serious, I really do respect your feelings here. But... it's a common English word, and the meaning it's being given here is clearly distinct from the meaning you're talking about. It's not used in a way that's an attack on anyone, when someone talks about the trash party. I'm sorry that you associate it with bad shit. But I don't think that's universalizable to it being a bad word in general, sorry.

Well, uh, I disagree, obviously, and I don't think you're seeing correctly.

Are you or are you not class-privileged?

But... it's a common English word, and the meaning it's being given here is clearly distinct from the meaning you're talking about.

You can say a thing, it doesn't make it true.

It's not used in a way that's an attack on anyone, when someone talks about the trash party.

And when rich college kids dress up and have a Hobo Party, or a Thug Party, or a "“Colonial Bros and Nava-Hos” party, it's not intended as an attack on someone either. So, it's not classist or racist then, according to you?

I'm sorry that you associate it with bad shit. But I don't think that's universalizable to it being a bad word in general, sorry.

Thanks for making my point, over and over again.YOU as a class-privileged person don't associate it with classism, so it's not classist! Oh thank God, the rich kid doesn't think it's classist, so it's not classist. Thank you, rich kid, for telling us lower class people what is and isn't discriminatory against us. YOU would know best, wouldn't you?

sorry blitzy but i'm not just going to agree with whatever you say, man. i think we just disagree.

you can keep calling me privileged if you want, though

You can say a thing, it doesn't make it true.

Okay, please outline for me how saying "I'm such [pairing] trash" is clearly and objectively a reference to the use of trash as an insult for the lower class, because I in no way see it. it seems divorced from that specific context.

And when rich college kids dress up and have a Hobo Party, or a Thug Party, or a "“Colonial Bros and Nava-Hos” party, it's not intended as an attack on someone either. So, it's not classist or racist then, according to you?

if you can draw out the ways in which identifying as hydra trash reinforces stereotypes or turns a specific example of oppression into a theme for a party - the way you clearly and directly and unmistakeably can in all of those examples - you might have something

but i'm at a loss to see it

which doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, it's certainly possible that i'm wrong, but i can't see any compelling arguments on the other side, and as a result, i think that i'm right

Wow, what a nice long paragraph of weasel words. You haven't said anything with even a drop of substance.

you can keep calling me privileged if you wan

Because you are, or you'd just say "No, I'm lower class" or "No, my family is blue collar". You stay mum on the issue of whether you're class-privileged because you are, and when you're called on it, you try to evade the issue by going "well you can call me that if you want".

if you can draw out the ways in which identifying as hydra trash reinforces stereotypes or turns a specific example of oppression into a theme for a party

Nice goal-post shifting. We went from "a slur must invoke certain associations" and when I hit that goal, you created a new one for me. Now using the slur the way the Tumblr kids do has to reinforce a stereotype for it to be an issue.

I guess that means you're totally cool with slurs being used, so long as they're not reinforcing stereotypes? Wow.

DA

Maybe don't bring up hobo and thug parties if you don't want to explain how they're similar to hydra trash party?

Maybe you shouldn't have brought up hydra trash party just now if you didn't want to explain how it's similar to a popsicle.

You have your new goalpost now nonny, just like me.

Edited 2015-04-22 05:21 (UTC)

Okay, except no one brought up popsicles, whereas you explicitly compared trash party to thug/hobo parties... I legitimately would like to know how you think that Hydra Trash Party and things like it reinforce classist stereotypes because that would clear up a lot for me, but I suspect that you don't actually know what it is.

Okay, except no one brought up popsicles, whereas you explicitly compared trash party to thug/hobo parties...

Except I never brought up Hydra Trash Party, just like you never brought up popsicles.

http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/1201014.html?thread=831806326#cmt831806326

Nonny brings up "trash party."

http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/1201014.html?thread=831807094#cmt831807094

You quote Nonny's remark about trash party and bring up real world party themes based on racist/classist stereotypes, essentially saying that these parties are not meant to attack people but are still harmful, suggesting that the same goes for hydra trash party.

???

It's not goalposting to ask you to explain that comparison. Again, I suspect that you're just clueless.

I didn't read Nonny's "trash party" as "Hydra Trash Party" and I don't see why you're inserting an extra word in there.

Again, I suspect that you're just clueless.

Clueless? That's funny. I'm not the one who keeps demanding an explanation from someone for a comparison they didn't make.

Edited 2015-04-22 06:02 (UTC)

Link? I guess I really am clueless, because I've looked through the secret thread and can't find any comments where you mention any kind of party before anon did.

Because you are, or you'd just say "No, I'm lower class" or "No, my family is blue collar". You stay mum on the issue of whether you're class-privileged because you are, and when you're called on it, you try to evade the issue by going "well you can call me that if you want".

i wouldn't say regardless of my personal class background, as i don't think it's relevant.

Nice goal-post shifting. We went from "a slur must invoke certain associations" and when I hit that goal, you created a new one for me. Now using the slur the way the Tumblr kids do has to reinforce a stereotype for it to be an issue.

it's not goalpost shifting it all. it's a restatement of my previous goalpost. because you responded to that one by essentially saying "No, that's not true, you're wrong" and nothing more. so i asked you to explain precisely how i was wrong. which i would still like to see you do.

i'm sure that you disagree. but i really hope you can make some substantive disagreement, because just arguing over who won / who is more of a shitfucker is a really goddamn pointless debate to have, and that's all we seem to be doing at the moment.

i wouldn't say regardless of my personal class background, as i don't think it's relevant.

Uh-huh. The class-privileged person won't say their class background, because their privileged status is irrelevant to a discussion on class! If you're trolling, I have to say nice work, because you're really making me laugh. You're perfectly invoking the stereotype of a privileged douchebag insisting they know better than a marginalized group about their experiences. It's amazing.

it's not goalpost shifting it all. it's a restatement of my previous goalpost.

*slow clap*

because you responded to that one by essentially saying "No, that's not true, you're wrong" and nothing more. so i asked you to explain precisely how i was wrong. which i would still like to see you do.

Oh, you mean I called out your weasel words and challenged your poor logic? And then instead of dealing with the rebuttals, you "restated your goalpost" and insisted I never addressed your reasoning?

but i really hope you can make some substantive disagreement, because just arguing over who won / who is more of a shitfucker is a really goddamn pointless debate to have, and that's all we seem to be doing at the moment.

That's all you're doing. I already destroyed your poor reasoning and now I'm watching you come up with bullshit evasions and goal-post shifting. I can't deny it's been amusing, for me at least.

I disproved your "trash has associations" bullshit, and then rolled on to your "tell me how Hobo party is like X" crap, where you argued that a slur has to be used in a stereotype-enforcing way for it to be bad. And you have yet to answer my rebuttal to that, which is:

Are you arguing that it's okay to use slurs so long as they're not reinforcing stereotypes?

Edited 2015-04-22 05:34 (UTC)

the sum total of your destruction of my reasoning, as far as i can see:

You can say a thing, it doesn't make it true.

like...

i mean, i guess it's true, as far as it goes, but it doesn't address the point at all. since clearly i do think it's true. it really looks like it's just saying "no, you're wrong" to me.

but if you've decided to declare victory that's okay too

SA sorry didn't see your edit, give me a chance to read it real quick

SA

okay, no, you pretty much just expanded your point

i'm still pretty sure that you didn't disprove any part of the point about associations, and i can't really find a more in depth argument than "you're just wrong" from you on that point

and regarding slurs, my point is the same as it's been, which is that using slurs is never okay but that trash is not a slur

and regarding slurs, my point is the same as it's been, which is that using slurs is never okay but that trash is not a slur

On what grounds is it not a slur? I recommend reading your previous argument as cited in my comment/summary below, if you want to avoid needless repetition. In other words, I recommend you find a rebuttal for my previous counters, rather than simply have me counter them again when you repeat your original, already countered, statements.

You stated here that a slur must have certain associations, and that trash must not be a slur, because it does not have certain associations.

That was disproved by me here here in multiple comments throughout the subthread, in which I demonstrated that trash had specific associations. A fact which you tacitly accepted when you ceased to defend that line of reasoning or invoke it whatsoever, instead choosing to move onto another goalpost.

That goalpost was:

A slur must be used in a way that is stereotype-reinforcing for it to be bad. It MUST be used like the "Thug parties" where people dress up like stereotypical thugs and invoke the stereotype. (that goalpost can be found here)

To which I asked you if you believed that it's cool to use slurs if it's not in a stereotype-reinforcing way. You never answered that. (that question can be found at the bottom of this comment.

but if you've decided to declare victory that's okay too

I think you declared victory when you gave up on defending any of the statements you'd previously made, upon them being challenged.

Edited 2015-04-22 05:45 (UTC)

That was disproved by me here here in multiple comments throughout the subthread, in which I demonstrated that trash had specific associations. A fact which you tacitly accepted when you ceased to defend that line of reasoning or invoke it whatsoever

sorry, no, i just stopped posting in that thread because the line of argument seemed to be developing in this one. if the one post you made that i didn't reply to there is what you're taking as proof, fair enough i suppose, although i don't think it's very good proof

what i would say to the one post i didn't respond to here is that, again, someone calling a millionaire trash may or may not be invoking a series of connotations associated with poor people. i don't think they necessarily are. like, there's pretty obviously a whole slew of connotations of the concept of trash that pretty clearly have nothing to do with poor people, because 'trash' is a word that has a meaning distinct from its use as an insult. even using it in the sense of worthless or garbage doesn't necessarily need to be invoking any set of ideas about class, in the way that any use of the n-word is intrinsically invoking a set of ideas and stereotypes about race. because the common english meaning of the word "trash" is synonymous with "garbage".

A slur must be used in a way that is stereotype-reinforcing for it to be bad. It MUST be used like the "Thug parties" where people dress up like stereotypical thugs and invoke the stereotype. (that goalpost can be found here)

that wasn't a goalpost or an attempt at a definition. i didn't mean to - and didn't - say that a slur must be comparable to a "thug parties" and invoke a stereotype. that was me asking you to expand on how the use of the word 'trash' is inextricably connected to the use of the word as an insult, which I take to be your position. to go into more depths on the specific mechanics and mechanisms, to help me see your point. in the same way as the other thing i said in the post where i asked you to explain your point.

"thug parties" aren't what i take to be central or definitive examples of stereotypes; rather, they're examples (which you brought up) of cases where the way in which they're intrinsically harmful and bad is clear.

You never answered that.

yeah i saw you got me in the other comment

there's pretty obviously a whole slew of connotations of the concept of trash that pretty clearly have nothing to do with poor people, because 'trash' is a word that has a meaning distinct from its use as an insult. even using it in the sense of worthless or garbage doesn't necessarily need to be invoking any set of ideas about class, in the way that any use of the n-word is intrinsically invoking a set of ideas and stereotypes about race. because the common english meaning of the word "trash" is synonymous with "garbage". .

Common meaning. Doesn't mean it doesn't have another meaning as a slur.

Do you think a banana is always a fruit, and is never a slur against Asians? A crow is just a bird, never a racial term, frog is always an amphibian and not a slur meaning a French person, kimchi and kraut have no ethnic connotations, and neither does the word oreo?

Your argument here seems to be "it has other meanings so it can't be a slur".

that was me asking you to expand on how the use of the word 'trash' is inextricably connected to the use of the word as an insult, which I take to be your position.

First, if you could, expand on what you mean by "inextricably connected" in this context, because it sounds like a weasel term where you'll go "but it's not inextricably connected". Second, specify what you would take as evidence of it being so connected.

Because it seems to me that the only way to prove that a word has a certain association is to observe and see if it has that association: and multiple people have came forward and said that to them, trash as a word has a clear connection as a slur on lower class or marginalized people.

If you're going to demand 100% agreement, from every single person, on the meaning of a word, for it to mean that, then you'll never have a meaning for a word. Some people are unaware of a slur being a slur; it doesn't divorce it of that connection for many people. Some people even argue that the N word doesn't refer to black people, that it refers to "bad people of any color" (Ew, I know, but I've heard this from people before.)

Edited 2015-04-22 06:23 (UTC)

Do you think a banana is always a fruit, and is never a slur against Asians? A crow is just a bird, never a racial term, frog is always an amphibian and not a slur meaning a French person, kimchi and kraut have no ethnic connotations, and neither does the word oreo?

perhaps. at the same time, i would find it difficult to object to someone having a frog party, unless they were wearing berets and making lots of stupid jokes about surrender.

First, if you could, expand on what you mean by "inextricably connected" in this context, because it sounds like a weasel term where you'll go "but it's not inextricably connected". Second, specify what you would take as evidence of it being so connected.

sure, that's fair, "inextricable" is maybe not a useful word there. but what i would say is some explanation for what's going on here that goes beyond the mere fact of them using the same words. that gives some grounds for regarding the usage of "trash" in fandom as being materially the same as its use as a classist insult or in some material way harmful. is that a more reasonable standard do you think?

(no subject)

blitzwing - 2015-04-22 06:42 (UTC) - Expand

SA

(Anonymous) - 2015-04-22 06:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: SA

blitzwing - 2015-04-22 06:43 (UTC) - Expand

Okay, please outline for me how saying "I'm such [pairing] trash" is clearly and objectively a reference to the use of trash as an insult for the lower class, because I in no way see it.

"trash" has a well-known cultural background of being used as an insulting method of referral to lower-class/poor people in the us. trailer trash, white trash, calling poc or immigrants trash, these are all extremely common and well-known things. if you call a person trash, those are what most people will think of first. the adjective "trashy" implies a lack of class or decorum, things which tend to be associated with the poor, true or not.

it's not a positive term when used in reference to human beings and brings to mind negative stereotypes in the minds of most people.

yes, i'm not pretending it's a positive word. it's an insult, of course it's an insult, and it's used to insult all sorts of people in all sorts of ways. it's a negative word.

what i'm arguing against is that it's a slur against a specific group, or more broadly, against the idea that it is morally wrong to talk about (for instance) "Hydra Trash Party" because its use in such a way is attempting to reclaim a word that is specifically a slur against lower class people. and it can't be used in a way that's divorced from that association, and if you're using it, it's classist.

if it was a "Hydra White Trash Party" or a "Hydra Trailer Trash Party" i could certainly see your point of view...

And if you'd been called trash all your life, trailer trash, ghetto trash, white trash black trash Mexican trash, laughed at, told that you were just a welfare queen in waiting, pieces of trash like you should die and quit popping out kids for "hard-working people" to support, would you feel comfortable joining the Hydra Trash Party? Would you laugh and think calling yourself and each other "trash" was good fun?

Or would your skin crawl? No offense, but don't bother answering if haven't endured a life of being called trash because of your class-status and/or race. You won't know the answer.

Edited 2015-04-22 07:00 (UTC)

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