fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3041 ]

[ SECRET POST #3041 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3041 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Dropping a trigger warning here.

Stepping outside the bounds of fandom for a second, a lot of porn stories put in these really fucked-up justifications. Rape becomes laudable if the target is "frigid," or a devout Christian, or just because women all secretly want it. Characters interrupt the story to rant about how sex with children shouldn't be illegal, or how society has ruined women's natural appetite for sex, or whatever random bug the author has got up his butt this time. I feel like we can have and celebrate kink in a healthy way, but we also need to recognize that the people creating kink might not be as healthy.

But I don't think that comes from ranting at everyone who's into the kink. If anything, it seems like it should come from people who are into a kink discussing and analyzing the community for that kink, rather than crusaders from outside the group.

OT, but 95% of the time it's a bug up HER butt. Not his. And that might be part of it -- people believing womens' sexual fantasies are all inherently safe and inert.

I spend most of my time disagreeing with everyone on this subject. People who crusade against kink shaming don't like me because I think there may be some value in examining kinks. But I don't think it's nearly as simple as the people who are against certain kinks make it out to be.

like what and how do you suggested they be regulated/examined/what have you?

I don't know. I'm not proposing any solutions. Which is probably another reason both sides don't like me.

Taking fantasies about children as an example, actual research is unclear about whether indulging in those fantasies with porn makes a person more or less likely to act on them in real life. Yet both sides claim that it absolutely does or does not based on no evidence at all. It's annoying.

NAYRT, but OMG, this! I have been looking in vain for the research to back up those claims, either way. But since even fictional portrayals of underage sex are considered child porn in Canada, I don't think there's a whole lot of research going on. Like you said, people claim that it will lead to real-life abuse, and yet, it seems that this is just the accepted wisdom, or anecdotal, with no actual research results to back it up?

Underage is not my kink at all, so I don't actually have a dog in that fight. And yet, I do wonder, sometimes, that the accepted wisdom is that it's necessary simply to drive this kink all the way underground, without even fictional outlets.

I do have a non-con kink, which has never in any way led me towards this behaviour in real-life. So I don't get why one kink is considered a problematic spiral downwards into eventual criminal behaviour, and the other is "well, that's a common kink."

There's a big difference between examining and shaming. What are you doing that makes people assume you're doing the latter?

I don't do anything. I keep quiet and enjoy my own shit that people would judge me for and then read some analysis of what it means that I like it because I think it's interesting and there's nothing wrong with thinking about it.

I don't think that's kinkshaming though. I think it's natural for someone to be interested in how fetishes form.

The issue is if you're telling other people to examine them. Not everyone is interested in human sexuality intellectually, and if you have no solution, telling people they have to critically examine their kinks when it changes nothing just seems like you're trying to punish them, by making them do a boring chore before they can be allowed to get their rocks off.

Re: I do feel like there needs to be some perspective on fucked-up shit

sarillia - 2015-05-02 20:57 (UTC) - Expand

Maybe because you're being judgmental and shaming?

From her comments, it really doesn't seem like she's being that way at all. Her interest in examining kinks only extends to herself and what she likes (and even so, I don't think examining and shaming are the same thing. You can analyze a kink without telling the people who have it that there's something wrong with them or that they shouldn't have said kink).

but we also need to recognize that the people creating kink might not be as healthy

So I guess it's not telling people that something's wrong with them. It's telling people that there might be something wrong with them. Totally different.

Re: I do feel like there needs to be some perspective on fucked-up shit

a_potato - 2015-05-03 02:52 (UTC) - Expand

Are you me? Because yeah, I'm all for examining kinks, and in the case of certain kinks... well, I draw a line (paedophilia for example)

Yeah, you can be kinky and kink-critical when it comes to things in the kinky community with abuse by doms/rl porn industry.

But there is a trend to be radically anti-kink and shaming women who enjoy reading or enjoying bdsm play as "brainwashed by the patriarchy".

It's really hard to explain the concept, but I think you've done it just now fairly well.

Like, I'm okay with the idea of lolicon and crap that doesn't involve actual children... but come on, I read a LOT of Piers Anthony, and I have a very hard time seeing his constant THING for putting young girls seducing much older adult men as perfectly harmless kink that shouldn't be pointed out.

--Rogan

I actually read this one author once . . . I can never remember his name. But he wrote this story where a family that can't afford the cost of birth control, having already had a ton of children, starts having sex with the kids who're too young to get pregnant. At the time, I thought it was hilarious satire. It wasn't until later that I found out that the author was a convicted child molester.

Was it Marion Zimmer Bradley's husband, Walter Breen? He's the first one that comes to mind.

And yeah, that's... actually not an uncommon defense of child rape, the claim that doing so is altruistic and for the good of the family. Even "experts" have argued that. It's. Yeah. It's too believable for me to see it as satire.

--Rogan

Different person, but I'd read extensively the depositions from the case that were posted online (when the news about MZB herself being a child molester came out last summer). While I remember that Breen wrote nonfiction for NAMBLA, I don't recall anything about him having written fiction, and given that his various nonfiction work came up in the depositions, I would think anything fictional like the above would have been mentioned as well.

The sad thing really is that Breen is far from the only one. :-\

Re: I do feel like there needs to be some perspective on fucked-up shit

lb_lee - 2015-05-03 20:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: I do feel like there needs to be some perspective on fucked-up shit

elialshadowpine - 2015-05-04 06:02 (UTC) - Expand

Re: I do feel like there needs to be some perspective on fucked-up shit

lb_lee - 2015-05-04 20:28 (UTC) - Expand

I completely agree with this perspective.

What I don't get is why so many fandoms writers are getting targeted for this.

I've seen plenty of the scenarios you've described in published fiction and media but I pretty much never see that in fanfic. Fanfic and fandom spaces consistently warn against all sorts of kinks in tags. With underage and rape fics, there are often additional disclaimers posted stating that the authors don't condone such actions in real life. The classic lit we had to endure in high school? Plenty of rape and no trigger warnings whatsoever. Violence against women and children on TV? "Viewer discretion is advised" and no more.

But instead we're going to go after women and girls, a lot of whom are survivors of assault who wrote these fics as a way to cope, because... why exactly?

Probably because they have comments sections. Writing an email to an author you don't like feels like going out of your way more than leaving a nasty comment.

I think you answered you own question there. You go into a convention:

You attack Jane, a Walmart worker and rape survivor who writes non-con on the weekends.

OR

You attack Stephen King, a popular millionaire author who also incorporates rape into his writing.

Which one of these is more likely to get you kicked out, banned, arrested, and hated by the entire fandom? Which one is your attack going to have a bigger impact on?

Edited 2015-05-03 00:36 (UTC)

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

Same why they'll mass-harass some kid on tumblr for saying something problematic years ago no matter how much the kid will apologize, to the point of making them delete their blog.

But would not dare to mass-harass reddit or 4chan.

Some of the worst stories for inserting these kinds of rants about how the author's rapey kink is really fine and dandy are actually published novels that any child can check out of their local lending library.

See: the Gor series.

I took it out of the library when I was 15. My mother drove me there and back. I never let her know what it was I'd read or how freaked out it made me.

+1000 I don't think we should eliminate all criticism.

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