[ SECRET POST #394 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 375 secrets from Secret Submission Post #057.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] personal attack, [ 1 ] we went through this yesterday.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, February 4th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 16

[viserys.livejournal.com]

I did.

Re: 16

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

It's wrong and there's an awful lot of literature out there that discusses why that particular myth has been perpetuated for so long.

Re: 16

[viserys.livejournal.com]

It is, I think, entirely a matter of opinion. Feel free to link me to some of said literature, though. I'm interested.

Re: 16

[blinkidybah.livejournal.com]

I agree with you but I'd love to be pointed in the direction of the literature, too, if you have any handy :)

Re: 16

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing handy, it's just stuff I've read over the years. I can scour google for you but I'm not sure where to start. feministing.com might have links to some books but even then you need to check the backlogs.

I'll poke around, check back.

Re: 16

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Hi guys. I don't know if anyone without Yale access can get to this, but this is required reading for Women's Center staff, so I thought it'd be worth a nudge: Young, Poor, and Pregnant: The Psychology of Teenage Motherhood (http://www.netlibrary.com/AccessProduct.aspx?ProductId=53512&ReturnLabel=lnkSearchResults&ReturnPath=/Search/SearchResults.aspx&PrimedSearch=teenage+sex). The book is by Judith Musick, in case that doesn't pan out. Here's an introduction (http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300061956). There's a chapter in it about relating to males that I find quite thought-provoking.

Re: 16

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

This, I suppose, is what I'll be telling the teenage victims of acquaintance rape we counsel at the Women's Center come Monday morning.

Re: 16

[viserys.livejournal.com]

"I think the girl usually has more control (or lack thereof) on the situation."
"...the girl usually has more control (or lack thereof)..."
"...usually has more..."
"...usually..."

... but not always, no.

Re: 16

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

So the girl has to be raped by her boyfriend before her sluttiness can be excused?

Re: 16

[viserys.livejournal.com]

... what?

Re: 16

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

You got it. Supposedly, a girl "usually" has more control in the situation. Unless it's rape. Then it's special, it's the exception, right? Well, I'm saying to you that "usually" doesn't cut it at all. Neither the boy nor the girl in the relationship should be expected to shoulder a heavier responsibility regarding safe sex, and as my experience has indicated, women are "usually" the ones being coerced into unwanted intercourse. Where's that lovely "most cases but not all" degree of control now?

Re: 16

[xinexpressiblex.livejournal.com]

The boy nor the girl in the relationship should be expected to shoulder a heavier responsibility.

So quite trying to make it about gender and saying it's usually the men then.

As my experience has indicated, women are "usually" the ones being coerced into unwanted intercourse

No idea why that would be... Oh wait. Didn't you mention that you work in a WOMEN'S CENTER? Of course you're experience is going to show women as the primary victims.

Re: 16

[moebot.livejournal.com]

She wasn't saying that the men should be expected to carry the burden. She's replying to an argument about how the woman should be the one in control, so of course the reaction is going to be "what about the dude?" She's advocating equal responsibility and justifiably getting upset at the notion that a woman should have to shoulder all societal responsibility. A notio that is everywhere, by the way.

...how does working in a women's center invalidate her knowledge and arguments, which have been spot-on so far?

Re: 16

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Your reply was almost impossible to plod through, so I'll just take what I can get out of that.

For one thing, contesting the view that girls usually have more control in a sexual relationship and thinking that neither party should be expected to carry the heftier weight? Are not contradictory views. It is usually the men, I do think that women are and have always had less control in the situation than men (the ideal would be equal say in the matter: this has yet to be realized), and the extent of this is so unbelievably outrageous that it necessitates the existence of places like Women's Centers in the first place.

Seriously, do you even have any idea what we do at Women's Centers? Talk to young girls who feel like they have nowhere to turn to. In many cases, because they have no say at all in their "relationships".

Re: 16

[xinexpressiblex.livejournal.com]

I didn't say anything against Women's Centers. One of my closest friends was sexually abused and I understand entirely the need for Women's Centers and how important they are.

On the other hand, two male friends of mine were also sexually abused. Call me naive/idealistic/whatever if you want, but I honestly don't think gender should be called into the situation because every case is different.

I feel like everyone here is forgetting that double standards apply to both sides and so many men never come out about being abused because they have to be macho and they should have liked it. Or maybe I'm just missing the point of this entire debate where everyone's pointing fingers and saying the exact same thing.

Re: 16

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

Your responses in this thread make me very happy. I'm too late to the party to wank about the secret in my own right, really, but I'm glad some people took up the reins, haha.

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[satora-chan.livejournal.com]

Oh, but they shouldn't have been walking alone at night! And she was revealing stomach! She was totally trying to grab their attention.

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Believe me, "You looked so hot in that skirt, you were totally asking for it, you wanted this." actually gets doled out a lot in place of "a reason" in these cases.

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[satora-chan.livejournal.com]

Have you ever seen Hard Candy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Candy_%28film%29)? It is, coincidentally, a movie that also stars Ellen Page. It's fantastic, and there's a segment (which you can probably find on the Internet) where she rants the fuck out about that "excuse".

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Yes ♥

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[satora-chan.livejournal.com]

Aah, those were good times. Remember? Where girl power wasn't incessantly mocked and the victims of sexual harrassment/abuse/rape/etc. weren't at fault?

... wait, I think I just made up a memory. Damn.

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Can I borrow your memory?

Re: 16 (woah wrong icon)

[satora-chan.livejournal.com]

Sure, but be careful: people might make you go to a psychiatrist because this overactive imagination of yours is going a bit too far.

Re: 16

[tamburlaine.livejournal.com]

I don't think the situation the secret was referring to was rape, so your point smells a little moot to me. In consensual sex, girls have as much responsibility as guys to do ensure birth control. Not every pregnant woman is a victim.

Re: 16

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

I realize that this thread has grown to ginormous proportions and that you can't be expected to slog through everything that follows, so I'll just say that never within the scope of this argument nor elsewhere have I claimed that girls should bear less responsibility than guys in matters of safe sex practices. On the contrary, I'm trying to argue that the responsibility should be equal on both sides, but that women have still a long way to go before being entirely removed from positions of vulnerability.

The statement about acquaintance rape was not much more than a snappy repartee to another person's claim that girls usually have more control in sex (consent unspecified). I do not think that every pregnant woman is a victim of rape, and I can't see how my arguments would seem to support this.