fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3200 ]

[ SECRET POST #3200 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3200 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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it's both something men do and something that is done to men. because society is basically a terrible machine, for everyone, that we are also all complicit in.

similarly, there are times when we should do everything we can to support men against toxic masculinity - mostly because ultimately I think empathy and caring and fighting against the alienation society produces is a profound moral duty. at the same time, I think it's important to attack the structures of toxic masculinity and to mitigate the harm that it creates, and that often requires arguing against men.

it's really difficult to strike this balance, because - again - society is a stone-cold motherfucker.

i have lots of thoughts on this but i think that covers the bases.

Which side should we err on? Attacking men to disable toxic masculinity or supporting men who're the victims of it? because those men are almost always the same men meaning it's not just a difficult balance to stike, it's a straight up impossible balance to strike. Infinite mercy cannot exist with infinite justice. Total compassion and total destruction can rarly work together. One must be sacrificed for the other at some point, so again I ask, which side do we err on?

I don't think it's possible to draw a bright line distinction. I think that's broadly the rule of judgment in human affairs: to figure out the application of broad principles to specific instances & to sort out the inevitable conflicts between the various outcomes you want to achieve in any situation. So, I mean, yeah. I think it mostly comes down to good judgment.

i do think, you know, as a sort of rough guideline, i would say that mostly the time when you're supporting men is when in the context non-toxic emotional interactions with them, when you're talking to them in a reasonable, non-fraught conversation, when you have a real friendship, those kinds of moments - and that generally the time to attack toxic masculinity is when it is manifesting in a way that concretely and immediately harms people.

and, yeah, often these things play off against each other. again - society's a stone-cold motherfucker.

SA but i just realized i should elaborate something:

to me, toxic masculinity is fundamentally an underlying mindset - an ideological approach to the world, a certain understanding of reality and a set of emotional attitudes which exists even at the times when it is not actually being turned into actions. toxic masculinity is not just the set of toxic things that men do; it's the underlying pathology. and that pathology is mostly what i have in mind changing.

Support the victims first. Always.

Agreed, but I think we define the victim differently. Na btw

That'd be men, mostly. The suicide rates ALONE...

More women attempt suicide. More men succeed. Due to more violent methods. I wonder why. Far more women are killed by men than the other way round.

Re: Toxic Masculinity

(Anonymous) - 2015-10-09 20:24 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Toxic Masculinity

(Anonymous) - 2015-10-09 21:07 (UTC) - Expand

we're not trying to destroy men. we're trying to destroy harmful societal structures.

Avoid total anything and you've got a better chance of avoiding a toxic fate yourself.

society is a stone-cold motherfucker

Society built and maintained by men. why should we have to protect them from it?

Built and maintained by RICH men. RICH. Classism is way more influential than sexism.

bullshit. show your sources or stfu.

....show your sources!

classism is another vector of structural oppression which deepens the general awfulness that society consists of. none of these forms of oppression are exclusive and there's no reason to play them off each other. sexism is bad. classism is bad.

sexism is worse.

Re: Toxic Masculinity

(Anonymous) - 2015-10-08 23:20 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Toxic Masculinity

(Anonymous) - 2015-10-09 07:34 (UTC) - Expand

Uh, no. Oppression olympics really aren't necessary. No one area of privilege is more influential than the other. They all play into each other and are impossible to separate.

Oh come on, the damage done by as well as to men at the bottom of the heap is considerable - put a guy under a lot of pressure in a way that a rich guy isn't, and a different type of damage/harm is going to come from that.

idk about "way more" but it's probably at least as influential historically.

but given that sexism perpetuates all classes, and sometimes in very similar ways...yeah not gonna buy "way more"

Patriarchy, literally, rule by fathers. There's classism and sexism both.

"The patriarchy hurts everyone" speech from the last issue of The Wicked and Divine broke it down pretty good, while also coming from someone gleefully rolling around in his own grotesqueness.

Maybe because poor men don't control or maintain society at all? Society is controlled and maintained by the 1%.

well, in part, because society is not built and maintained by the actions or choices of any one person. it's a broader system and structure and machine. it's moloch.

in part, because we owe a duty of care to other human beings as such.

You. I like the way you phrased this. YESSS.

I bet you were a hit in your Women's Studies 101 class!

"Were" nothing, she's still in it.

Unless she's never seen women reinforce fucked-up gender roles, in which case she's in, what, a Skinner box?

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