[ SECRET POST #3204 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3204 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 052 secrets from Secret Submission Post #458.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Huh. Interesting.

For me, personally, I've seen the exact opposite of this. Maybe it's because I follow a lot of Social Justice Slash Shipping Tumblr, but I see a lot of slash shippers label het ships as abusive for fairly asinine reasons. For instance, I saw several people call a het ship "abusive" and "pedophiliac" because the guy is nineteen and the girl is seventeen. I've also seen people call het ships "incestuous" simply because the guy and girl grew up together. (Funnily enough, this same argument is never brought up when two guys grow up together).

I guess it just depends on who you follow and know, but I definitely do feel that if you're a slash shipper you're probably more inclined to be hypocritical about het ships and vice versa.

[(Anonymous)]

"I've also seen people call het ships "incestuous" simply because the guy and girl grew up together. (Funnily enough, this same argument is never brought up when two guys grow up together)."

In regards, to this, it really depends. Thor/Loki is still incestuous even though they grew up together and most of the shippers acknowledge it. Even if they aren't blood related.

I think there's a difference between growing up as best friends (Ron and Hermoine) and growing up as siblings (Thor and Loki or any other kind of adoptive sibling).

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I think adoption can get kind of fuzzy. I don't know if you're familiar with Attack on Titan, but a lot of slash shippers (especially Eren/Armin shippers) who made arguments about how Eren/Mikasa was incestuous because Mikasa lived with Eren's family for a year before his parents were killed. Some people argue that they're adoptive siblings, and it's wrong to ship them. Others point out that Mikasa really can't be considered Eren's sibling since she only lived with his family for a year, and she clearly didn't consider his parents to be her family. Also, Armin has known Eren longer than Mikasa.

I tend to agree with the latter group, although I don't ship Eren/Mikasa. (I find it boring). However, I do think that many of these slash shippers probably wouldn't be raising this issue if Mikasa was a dude.

The topic also gets fuzzy when we're talking about a historical context. Cousin marriage was legal for many years, and there's a lot of media about romance between cousins. Is it really morally wrong to ship cousins if it wasn't condemned during that period?

Also, I have to admit that I don't really think Ron/Hermione is the best example? They didn't really meet each other until they were eleven, and they didn't really "grow up together" outside of Hogwarts. I think shippers start bringing it up more if the two characters knew each other since they were very small children (like age 5).

That said, on the flip side, you have het shippers who will do the same thing with two guys that grew up together and start claiming that it's gross for anyone to consider them anything more than brothers. They'll claim a male character meeting a female character as a teenager or adult is more "healthy."

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Cousin marriage is still legal and not a moral issue in several countries.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I know, but it's condemned for the most part in the West.

The idea of marrying a cousin disgusts me, and I can understand why fandom would be put off by it since it's generally very Western-based, but, yeah, I agree fandom needs to think about other countries.

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

I was curious about this and googled it, cousin marriage is legal pretty much everywhere minus the USA, two countries in Europe, China and India.

...I didn't expect it.

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

I knew that AoT was gonna be brought up when I read this secret.

Gonna be one of "those" fans though and ask, what Eren/Armin shippers have you been following? Because as someone who is pretty entrenched in the ship, their fans always seem to be pretty inclusive when it comes to Mikasa.

[(Anonymous)]

I consider it incestuous if kids were raised together as siblings since they were babies. I hate when things do the they're adopted so it's okay to that. Because wtf.

That said if a character's taken into a household after they're like 10, I see them as developing separately and they probably won't see each other quite like brother/sister. Like Barry/Iris doesn't weird me out. Barry has clear memories of his father and mother.

[(Anonymous)]

Eh…Barry/Iris weirds me out because they're being raised AS siblings. It'd be one thing if she was "the girl next door" but their situation is way too familial for my comfort, to be honest.

[(Anonymous)]

Barry and Iris don't read as incestuous to me because Joe knew about Barry's feelings for Iris and clearly didn't raise them as siblings. They grew up as best friends who shared a parental figure. That's it. And Barry's feelings for Iris pre-dated him moving in with Joe and Iris so...yeah. I don't see anything wrong there. But I also ship both characters with other people and am not super invested in whether or not they end up together. I just like their dynamic and think they have good chemistry.

[(Anonymous)]

If they meet each other after they're 16 or so, I no longer consider it incest, and incest is usually a huge no-no for me. For me it depends how long they live together as siblings after that. If they meet at 16 and at 25 still live as siblings, and think of each other like that, a relationship suddenly developing would be weird.

If they meet at 17, are not blood relatives, live together for about 6 months, say, and then a couple of years later start dating after they meet up again, that barely even pings my incest radar. The main issue would be outsiders occasionally getting the wrong idea.

[kitelovesyou]

For fuck's sake, why the fuck does it matter what a ship is and why people like it. Putting a social justice judgement on shipping preferences is only meaningful when talking about overall trends, like the prevalence of whitecock, else it's just a shamey way to shit on other people for liking something you don't.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I don't get why people feel the need to shame others for their shipping preferences. If someone is being an asshole, call them out on their asshole behavior but there's no need to drag all the fans of a ship into it.

And even for overall trends like whitecock, it seems like SJ types are far more eager to attack the (usually) female audience shipping them rather than the content creators; because white guys are still the majority of characters and they also get the most story focus and character development in most works. It feels like going after the wrong target, a weaker one that you can bully.

[kitelovesyou]

It feels like going after the wrong target, a weaker one that you can bully.

Heh, I know this one, infighting ahoy. I think it's important there are voices discussing problematic trends, but so often the source material is where it starts.

The temptation to jump from trend to individual is pretty unfortunate and unless that individual is completely shooting themselves in the foot, it's always better to give people the benefit of the doubt. Ship and let ship.

[a_potato]

It feels like going after the wrong target, a weaker one that you can bully.

I think that's part of it, as is the idea that it's much easier to attack fellow fans than it is to try and exact any meaningful change. They get to feel like they've done something without actually having to do anything.

More than that, though, I think it's about what ship drama has always been about: people taking shipping far too seriously and personally, and wanting to drag down those who ship differently from them as a result. And for those types of people, attacking ships under the guise of social justice seems like a great way to make it look like their shipping preferences are objectively better ("your ship is morally wrong!").

[(Anonymous)]

Completely agreed. I've got my preferences, too, of course, like anyone else, and there's some ships that don't grab me for whatever reason.

But I'm sure as hell not going to sit here and dictate who can and can't ship what, or go and shame fans of a pairing for liking something that does nothing for me. They're not forcing it on me, I don't have to read it, so it's no skin off my nose.

Shipping is supposed to be a fun activity. There's no need for all the drama.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I ship a lot of different things, het, slash, and femslash alike, and, for me, shipping comes down to how interesting I find the characters' interactions.

To be honest, I don't really ship things based on how cute or romantic or healthy something is. Sometimes it ends up that I do ship something cute, healthy, or romantic, but my preference is to ship two very well-developed characters that have a lot of canon interaction and usually have conflicting personalities.

For some people, they might want to ship the most romantic and emotionally stable relationship, and that's fine! But I'm not going to ship something if I find one of the characters boring. Because of this, I get a lot of people calling my ships "abusive" and saying that I'm a terrible person for shipping them, which I don't really appreciate.

Re: AYRT

[kitelovesyou]

Because of this, I get a lot of people calling my ships "abusive" and saying that I'm a terrible person for shipping them, which I don't really appreciate.

Eurgghh, sorry you have to deal with that bullshit.

If/when I jump back into tumblr etc, if anyone says that about my ships I'm gonna let them have it. I only like abusive, "eventful", power-dynamic-fraught ships. This says absolutely fucking nothing about how good I am to the people in my life. That is straight up kinkshaming what people are doing. Reminds me of when I was closeted kink-wise and had to listen to my feminist friends go on about how bdsm was glorifying slavery and Nazism and real life rape and etc. Can't see this failure to distinguish between fantasy and irl as much different.

[nightscale]

Because people want an excuse to shit all over other people and using SJ buzzwords is the best way to make your argument look more legit.

(I seriously couldn't care less what other people ship, even if I don't get it/see it I am not going to bother someone over it, have fun with it man).

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. I think it's important to look at trends, but I'm not keen on the way it mostly manifests as policing the preferences of individual fans, the majority of whom are women. I'm rather creeped out by the notion that any individual owes any character, person or group of people their interest in general, and their sexual interest in particular, and that that sort of policing is somehow not considered problematic at all.

[kitelovesyou]

Yep, I'm creeped out too. :/

[diet_poison]

I think, especially among younger fans, you have a sort of over-arching ship war between The Slash Shippers and The Het Shippers. bleh. it's dumb.

[(Anonymous)]

Really? I'm guessing you follow live action Western stuff? In any anime fandom, I could almost guarantee that it's the het shippers who get really smug about "not being into yaoi" and "rarrr abusive yaoi tropes" yet will ship the most abusive het ships.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Nope...I'm mainly in anime fandom, haha.

The het ships I see get called abusive are like boring at worst.

[(Anonymous)]

I partly agree.
It seems to me that shipping het over tumblr has became a crime to slashers, especially if one of the characters is part of their ship. Try shipping het in some fandoms and you won't have fun.
You cannot like a het ship, canon or just subtext and potential, that people start saying it's problematic heteronormative shit and homophobia, or feminism fail because women cannot be in relationships anymore apparently.

I see slash fans being hypocritical, the way OP describes, on daily basis. They are the first to use the 'your ship is problematic and abusive!' argument for het ships yet, give a pass to their own ship. In general, from my experience, they are the ones who least follow the 'ship and let ship' rule.
That said, it depends on the fandom.