[ SECRET POST #3217 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3217 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 064 secrets from Secret Submission Post #460.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

07. http://i.imgur.com/a3Yo3Ss.png

[morieris]

I think they have some merit...but they did need a few more comb-throughs with the story.

Ironically, I found them as a three pack blu ray missing Phantom Menace in a store yesterday.

[(Anonymous)]

I have no problem with you loving them. Emotions don't have any connection to quality, necessarily, and nostalgia is a powerful thing, and I love plenty of things that are not so good. And I'll even go so far as to say that there is more and more extreme bashing than there needs to be, b/c many Star Wars fans are dumb grognards.

At the same time, I think they're really not very good, and especially Phantom Menace is really bad purely as a work of film regardless of what it has to do with Star Wars. And, like, I don't think it's a crime to point that out. One of the reasons people criticize them so much is because there are a lot of valid grounds for critique.

But anyway, I hope you can enjoy them in your own way. And as usual, codicil here that I'm fairly sure we're argued about this before, so it's all good. Peace and love.

[diet_poison]

Emotions don't have any connection to quality...?

I guess maybe I watch movies for all the wrong reasons...

[(Anonymous)]

I mean to say, one can have extremely real emotions about things that are quite bad

[(Anonymous)]

Quality is subjective.

Artistic merit is subjective.

The prequels aren't objectively good or bad. They're works of media and you either like them or dislike them.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know. I don't want to get into a heavy debate about the basic elements of aesthetic theory, because lord knows that's a quagmire. But at the same time, I think there's a meaningful distinction between different kinds of criticism as a film. And, at least for me personally, on a phenomenological level, I am capable of recognizing when I feel I dislike something in a movie on grounds of taste, and when I am criticizing a specific thing that exists on screen for the role it plays in the film as a work.

So like, it's one thing to say that Jar Jar is a poopiehead and I find him annoying. It's another thing to say that the movie doesn't have a protagonist and it suffers from the lack of an emotional throughline. And it's not clear to me - if you're not allowed to have the second kind of conversation - how you're going to talk about movies at all, honestly.

[philstar22]

Okay, but I think that film quality is much more subjective than you are making it out. There are some objectives, yes, but a lot of it is subjective. And the OT isn't perfect either, and a lot of fans hate the prequels in large part because of overestimating the OT because of nostalgia.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, but I think that film quality is much more subjective than you are making it out. There are some objectives, yes, but a lot of it is subjective.

I agree with that. I just think that, to the extent that it is objective, a lot of the criticism is valid IMO.

And the OT isn't perfect either, and a lot of fans hate the prequels in large part because of overestimating the OT because of nostalgia.

I agree with that. In fact that's what I was trying to get at when I said that a lot of SW fans hate the prequels for dumb reasons.

[(Anonymous)]

you, me, same boat, OP, except that I did see the originals when they came out. prequel-bashing has killed any love I used to have for Star Wars, past present AND future.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, OP, I totally know how you feel as another prequel-loving anon who saw them first.

I know how easily it is to slip into OT-hate. It took me a while to be able to love and appreciate the OT because some of its fans can just be such assholes. But I loved the Luke and Vader relationship too much to be able to write them off. If you can, try to see and enjoy the films on their own merits and fuck the haters. What helps me too is remembering that George Lucas was so heavily involved and responsible for bringing the OT to life and yet the bashers LOATHE him as though he'd done something awful.

I understand what you're saying about the new movie though. Seeing the prequel hatred rear its ugly head in the media sucks. And I've never liked JJ Abrams so I can't say I'm super-excited about the new films.

Just try to stay positive. Popularity is no indicator of quality.

Okay but...

[(Anonymous)]

The original trilogy holds a lot of nostalgia for a lot of people, and the prequels basically farted all over all that, so. I think it's wonderful that they got you into other scifi. A lot of things that are "the worst thing ever" have led people to discover other awesome things, so that is something good about them. But as bad as you feel about people shitting all over your fond memories of the prequels is essentially how original trilogy fans feel about the retcon.

Re: Okay but...

[(Anonymous)]

"But as bad as you feel about people shitting all over your fond memories of the prequels is essentially how original trilogy fans feel about the retcon."

The problem isn't that original trilogy fans dislike the prequels (I'm part of Zelda fandom and there's lots of dislike of different games among fans), it's that there's absolutely not respect for other people's opinions and, what's infinitely worse, outright harassment.

"George Lucas raped my childhood."
The treatment of Jake Lloyd (a child, for god's sake!) and Ahmed Best
People harassing George Lucas' kids on twitter

The harassment is so bad that, for the fridge-nuking scene in Indiana Jones, Steven Spielberg claimed it was his idea because he was so afraid of the backlash that Lucas would get. Lucas found out about this when the NYT told him that Spielberg had made the claim but Lucas corrected them and said Spielberg did it to protect him.

Then there's the treatment of the prequel fans...which is often borderline offensive (comparing prequel fans to pedophiles)

Okay, original trilogy fans didn't like the prequels. But they need to grow up.

Re: Okay but...

[philstar22]

This so much. Hate on them all you want, don't talk about it as fact, don't be rude, and don't insist that everyone who disagrees with you is dumb.

And I for one grew up on the OT and still enjoyed the prequels. So it isn't all OT fans who don't like the PT.

Re: Okay but...

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Eh, there are stans for both trilogies.

[meganbmoore]

I'm not a fan of the prequel movies, though there are parts that I like (but I do think the third movie, at least, works a lot better if you watch The Clone Wars because Anakin's development, the issues with the Jedi Order, and the political landscape in general are more developed-a benefit of TV over movies- and add a lot of perspective). At this point, though, I think it's become a habit/"cool kid" thing to hate on them. A lot of people who bash them now do so in broad, general terms, and don't realize that, this many years later, people who were children at the time and "met" the franchise through the movies (including 2 of the lead actors in the new movies) through the trilogy. So when a certain type of "old school" fans start bashing the movies and their fans for liking movies that they think ruined their childhood, they're pretty much trying to do the same to younger fans.

[nightscale]

I don't hate the prequels, they've got stuff I like in them, but I prefer the OT out of the two trilogies.

[fishnchips]

I was never a big fan of 2 and 3 (which is mostly because of Hayden Christensen and his masssive lack of chemistry with Natalie Portman) but TPM will always have a very special place in my heart.

[elaminator]

I saw the OT first and I still enjoyed them. They weren't perfect films but for me they didn't have to be; they were still fun to watch. Nostalgia might've actually helped me enjoy them so I know I'm unusual in that regard.

As for people hating the prequels...they're allowed that, but it's become so common for people to rant about how awful they are that I've started to tune it out. I'm tired of hearing it.

And tbh, I kind of adore Phantom Menace. Say what you will about that film, but if nothing else I REALLY like Qui-Gon-Jinn and young!Obi-Wan and Darth Maul was great (and strangely hot). No shame.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

Nice icon.

[(Anonymous)]

I quite like the prequels as well. There are definitely bad/boring bits, but the OT isn't perfect either. Plus, the prequels also have some really cool stuff and excellent performances as well. People always focus on how bad Anakin (both of them) and Padme were, but all the other (older) actors were pretty good.

I really do think it's a matter of how important the OT is to you. Also, they've become these mythical stories now, when back then they were just popular blockbusters. And then there's the fact that obviously the stuff you experience/like as a kid has more of an impact.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

It's not an either/or. One can note that Lucas's tin ear for human emotion and performance influenced both the prequels and A New Hope (the only one of the OT where Lucas was both final screenwriter and director, although it's pretty much an open secret that Marcia Luca saved Episode IV from a first cut that no one understood.)

[philippos42]

Well, that was going to happen. The existing (quasi-religious, man-child) SW fandom when The Phantom Menace came out was full of insufferable goobers who laid into the new movie (when there was just one of them!) for not being as cool as they thought the old movies were.

But you know, we were dumb kids being marketed to by a dollmaker when we were Star Wars fans. A New Hope and ESB are genuinely good movies, but they're not really what we thought they were, if that makes sense.

I saw TPM when it came out, but I'd already basically left SW fandom at that point. I liked Jar Jar, I thought they were doing well with Palpatine, and it was kind of a fun movie. But there were some weird missteps that were going to bite Lucas in the butt with the critics and the fans, and they did.

I'm sorry for the younger generation, that you had to put up with all these crabby adult men whining about your movies.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey! Not a man and I was Aghast at the first prequel. So keep your generalising to yourself.

[(Anonymous)]

honestly i didn't think the prequels where all that different in spirit to the originals

the major change was anakin (and jar jar) was not a likable character