fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #405 ]

[ SECRET POST #405 ]

⌈ Secret Post #405 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Last day to submit for next week!

Happy Valentines Day to everyone! ♥♥♥

Also, just a note: Dude, bitmaps are HUGE. Please don't submit secrets in bitmap format. I redid one today to a jpeg, because I was feeling nice, but we will make a special section down in the not posted secrets in the future for bitmaps. We're trying to make the page as easy to load for everyone as we can. Thanks!

Secrets Left to Post: 4 pages, 81 secrets from Secret Submission Post #058.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 4 5 ] too big, [ 1 ] ...the hell?.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Friday, February 15th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Phoenix can afford to be open with himself when making internal cracks about Maya, but he doesn't know how to be completely open with himself when it comes to those more difficult emotional situations.

See, that doesn't make any sense to me. After his reaction at the end of Chapter three, I thought it was normal that he wasn't thinking straight at first cause he was in shock, but considering he's never been with a man before, I think you'd expect him to freak out and ask himself tons of questions about what happened, and what he's going to do. But the only obvious thing in Chapter four is that he's confused, but we have NO IDEA what he's thinking. At all. And that kind of kills it, in my opinion. This has nothing to do with him being open with himself or not. We're in his head. If he's confused, we're supposed to know what he's thinking about, but we don't.

for example, Chapter Four, realizing that he didn't want to lose the companionship like Edgeworth or in Chapter Five realizing there was no other place anywhere he'd rather be than next to him

I got that, but it's still not enough. To be honest, the first three chapters were okay, but it all fell apart with Chapter four. When he goes and sees Edgeworth at his office, we have no idea what he's thinking about the whole time they're talking. At the end, I honestly had no clue what he was trying to say. Did he feel bad for the way he reacted? Was he trying to understand what exactly happened? Was he telling Edgeworth he just wants to be friends? It was all very confusing. And you're probably going to say he was confused and didn't even know himself what he was trying to say, but if that's the case, why did he even go to see Edgeworth in the first place? If someone is that confused, they'd take some time to think about the situation first. Even Phoenix.

but again, if that didn't get across, I suppose it's our bad.

Well then, stop saying that and do something about it. If all that stuff didn't get across, it's kinda bad, isn't it? When you write, some things might be obvious to you, but that doesn't mean they're obvious to the readers. And trust me, a lot of stuff in there doesn't make any sense to me. And I know I'm not the only one.

See, that doesn't make any sense to me. After his reaction at the end of Chapter three, I thought it was normal that he wasn't thinking straight at first cause he was in shock, but considering he's never been with a man before, I think you'd expect him to freak out and ask himself tons of questions about what happened, and what he's going to do. But the only obvious thing in Chapter four is that he's confused, but we have NO IDEA what he's thinking. At all. And that kind of kills it, in my opinion. This has nothing to do with him being open with himself or not. We're in his head. If he's confused, we're supposed to know what he's thinking about, but we don't.

What we talked about in regards to this chapter is that Phoenix is explicitly trying to avoid thinking about it, which we tried to get across through his interaction with Maya, trying to get rid of the beer stain, and then trying to absorb himself in his work. Even after the talk with Iris after he realizes he has to do something, he's still not thinking in explicit terms as to what that is--he's not ready to yet. So he just charges in, which goes back to what musouka mentioned above about acting without thinking.

We really did talk about all of this as far as our portrayal went. I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but.

I got that, but it's still not enough. To be honest, the first three chapters were okay, but it all fell apart with Chapter four. When he goes and sees Edgeworth at his office, we have no idea what he's thinking about the whole time they're talking. At the end, I honestly had no clue what he was trying to say. Did he feel bad for the way he reacted? Was he trying to understand what exactly happened? Was he telling Edgeworth he just wants to be friends? It was all very confusing. And you're probably going to say he was confused and didn't even know himself what he was trying to say, but if that's the case, why did he even go to see Edgeworth in the first place? If someone is that confused, they'd take some time to think about the situation first. Even Phoenix.

I think that's just going to come down to a fundamental disagreement in characterization. You're right in that we were trying to get at that he himself was confused and wasn't sure what he went there to say, but we did think that he would have went once he gained a better understanding of the apparent urgency of the situation--indirectly at first through Iris and then directly on seeing Edgeworth's state of panic in itself.

Well then, stop saying that and do something about it. If all that stuff didn't get across, it's kinda bad, isn't it? When you write, some things might be obvious to you, but that doesn't mean they're obvious to the readers. And trust me, a lot of stuff in there doesn't make any sense to me. And I know I'm not the only one.

What would you like us to do? I mean, I think you've made your feelings clear, and I understand them and I'm sorry you don't like some of the choices we've made, but as I said, I think this is just coming down a basic disagreement on how Phoenix operates.

You're right in that we were trying to get at that he himself was confused and wasn't sure what he went there to say, but we did think that he would have went once he gained a better understanding of the apparent urgency of the situation

Where is the understanding, then? We don't see it. Him talking to Iris doesn't tell us anything about what he's thinking.

What would you like us to do?

Get better betas. Cause obviously, either the ones you have right now suck, or they're not being honest with you. If you read something a hundred times and still can't figure out what it means, there's something wrong. Your betas shouldn't be afraid to tell you when something doesn't make sense. Also, the obvious grammatical errors.

I mean, I think you've made your feelings clear, and I understand them and I'm sorry you don't like some of the choices we've made, but as I said, I think this is just coming down a basic disagreement on how Phoenix operates.

This has nothing to do with it, actually. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that Phoenix goes and sees Edgeworth even though he has no idea what he's going to say, but EXPLAIN. That's just an assumption I made cause every other way to look at it didn't make sense, and I shouldn't have to do that. We have to SEE he's confused, not suppose he is.

Where is the understanding, then? We don't see it. Him talking to Iris doesn't tell us anything about what he's thinking.

The idea was the the key came when it hit him how hard it was for Iris to deal with her feelings for Phoenix all that time, which he went on to connect with Edgeworth--and noting that he 'wasn't the greatest at noticing things'. We did try to play it subtle. What Phoenix says does actually reflect in part what he's thinking.

Get better betas. Cause obviously, either the ones you have right now suck, or they're not being honest with you. If you read something a hundred times and still can't figure out what it means, there's something wrong. Your betas shouldn't be afraid to tell you when something doesn't make sense. Also, the obvious grammatical errors.

It's interesting, because--not to undermine your point, because if it genuinely confused you I think it's a valid one--but other people have actually mentioned specifically appreciating what the Iris scene got across without us explaining it, so frankly it's a little bewildering--different strokes for different folks, perhaps?

This has nothing to do with it, actually. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that Phoenix goes and sees Edgeworth even though he has no idea what he's going to say, but EXPLAIN. That's just an assumption I made cause every other way to look at it didn't make sense, and I shouldn't have to do that. We have to SEE he's confused, not suppose he is.

Phoenix's mindset shifted after the phonecall with Iris, and he was focusing solely on just getting to Edgeworth, even though he admitted he had no idea how things would turn out from there. His feelings were still confused, but I thought that shift was fairly clear from the last line in the office scene and his attitude when first confronting Edgeworth with no plan. Maybe not?

It's interesting, because--not to undermine your point, because if it genuinely confused you I think it's a valid one--but other people have actually mentioned specifically appreciating what the Iris scene got across without us explaining it, so frankly it's a little bewildering--different strokes for different folks, perhaps?

I wasn't talking about the Iris scene specifically. There's just a lot of stuff in there that doesn't make any sense. A lot of sentences could be interpreted in a hundred different ways, and also a lot of them just make you go "WHUT?". Also, if some of the phrasing is confusing, the betas should tell you. And a lot of things were really REALLY obvious, and I just can't believe you and all the betas missed them, even after going over the chapter several times, while I noticed right away. It doesn't make sense.

His feelings were still confused, but I thought that shift was fairly clear from the last line in the office scene and his attitude when first confronting Edgeworth with no plan. Maybe not?

It really wasn't.

I wasn't talking about the Iris scene specifically. There's just a lot of stuff in there that doesn't make any sense.

Such as?

A lot of sentences could be interpreted in a hundred different ways, and also a lot of them just make you go "WHUT?". Also, if some of the phrasing is confusing, the betas should tell you. And a lot of things were really REALLY obvious, and I just can't believe you and all the betas missed them, even after going over the chapter several times, while I noticed right away. It doesn't make sense.

Well, apparently we all did. Oops.

It really wasn't.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, then.

Such as?

- The whole scene in the office in Chapter four, cause we have no idea what Phoenix is trying to say the whole time, and we don't know what he thinks about Edgeworth's feelings. Also, in Chapter five, Phoenix says something about "yelling at each other in the office", but the whole conversation in the office didn't sound like they were yelling at all.

- The part where Edgeworth makes Phoenix wait for an hour before going to the restaurant, only to find out later that nothing happened apparently.

- In Chapter three, was Edgeworth drunk driving? He must not have been sober to decide to kiss Phoenix. And he's only had one beer at Phoenix's place, which implies that he wasn't in a condition to drive his car when they got back from the restaurant. Plus, he drives again when he leaves.

- Also, you should never end your sentences with ellipses if it's not something that's obvious. We can't keep guessing what you're trying to say.

There's more, but those are the obvious ones.

Well, apparently we all did. Oops.

Yeah, that's really the right attitude to adopt. I thought you took crit well? I'm just trying to help, you know.

The part where Edgeworth makes Phoenix wait for an hour before going to the restaurant, only to find out later that nothing happened apparently.

Well, I know this is probably going to come off as a cheap answer, but this scene--while its main point was to show how nervous Edgeworth was--also goes back to trying to set things up for later (much later, in some cases, so I can see how that could be frustrating.) I can understand how some of those details might be bewildering in that they don't seem to go anywhere--I'm sure there are other things you noticed that seemed to get too much detail to be dropped as quickly as they seemed to be--but this is a WIP.

In Chapter three, was Edgeworth drunk driving? He must not have been sober to decide to kiss Phoenix. And he's only had one beer at Phoenix's place, which implies that he wasn't in a condition to drive his car when they got back from the restaurant. Plus, he drives again when he leaves.

We did talk about that a little. Yeah, he was tipsy driving back. Bad choice on his part, but.

Yeah, that's really the right attitude to adopt. I thought you took crit well? I'm just trying to help, you know.

I'm sorry if I seemed snippy, but I'm not sure what else I can say. I know it's bewildering to you to think that nobody seemed to "catch" these things that you're pointing out, and trust me, it's just as bewildering to me. I do value your opinion; it's just an odd contrast when talking to people when we've specifically asked if things were clear and if they've flowed. So I don't know what to say except that I'm sorry it was confusing for you and we'll try to make things clearer in the future with what you've said in consideration. I know the writing's not perfect by a long shot, and there are a lot of things we could have done better, so I appreciate your telling us that things skew too opaque in some scenes--it's just that I also think there seem to be some basic differences as far as our takes on how Phoenix's mind works, which is fine.

I'm sure there are other things you noticed that seemed to get too much detail to be dropped as quickly as they seemed to be--but this is a WIP.

Actually, like I said before, I noticed more stuff that doesn't get much detail at all but that's still in there. A lot of it seems pretty pointless and makes you wonder why it's even there in the first place, and I really doubt that all of it is foreshadowing.

We did talk about that a little. Yeah, he was tipsy driving back. Bad choice on his part, but.

Well, this is kinda bad. Edgeworth would never drink and drive. Especially not with Phoenix and Maya in the car.

I know it's bewildering to you to think that nobody seemed to "catch" these things that you're pointing out, and trust me, it's just as bewildering to me.

To go back to the grammar mistakes, here's some of the obvious stuff I was talking about:

"Are you too tired for a quick cup of coffee, or should I just drop you off at home?"

That sentence makes no sense whatsoever. It would make sense if it said "Are you awake enough". Otherwise, he's just repeating the same thing twice.

"If there something—"

"Oh, quite sulking, Nick; I was just kidding,"

See what I mean?

Edgeworth was also surprisingly straightforward taste in food.

And someone has to explain to me how you can read that sentence and not realize that it makes no sense.

There's a lot more, but you get the idea.

Well, this is kinda bad. Edgeworth would never drink and drive. Especially not with Phoenix and Maya in the car.

She was referring to driving home from the apartment. Edgeworth wasn't quite as drunk when he kissed Phoenix as you think he was, though it was my mistake for not making it clear he had more than one beer at the apartment. I apologize.

See what I mean?

Yes, indeed I do. Thank you.

Threadjumping to say that you've received some amazing con crit here. I can understand that you might feel a little defensive so do give it a few days and read over their comments again. Be as objective as you can. You will most likely find that they have some good points.

From an outsider's perspective, the anon hasn't been rude at all. They've been direct and honest. This is exactly the way my beta readers speak to me and it always leads to an improvement in my work.

If you get con crit in the future, it's always best not to reply immediately. Give yourself some time so that you can look at the crit as objectively as possible.

Seconded (and I don't know your fandom so can't offer thoughts on the fic, but have recieved some fairly harsh con-crit myself).

\o/

Me too, and it definitely can sting, especially when you worked really hard on something. But even if I don't always agree, I do find that seeing something from someone else's perspective helps me become a better writer.

I've always tried to be as honest as possible when betaing for these two, because they do it to me. If something doesn't work, I tell them it doesn't work.

I agree that anon has been polite and not rude to the two writers, but honestly, I can't help but disagree. The things she doesn't say are clear, I personally found them clear when I beta'd.

Maybe there are problems that I didn't notice, but I honestly disagree. Still, it is good concrit from an objective perspective.

That's abolutely fine if you don't agree. I don't always agree with the crit that I receive. And I do believe that you are doing the best beta job you can for your friends. It's good that you're honest with them.

I jumped in to the conversation because they were receiving good crit (from an objective perspective, as you said) and I would hate for a writer to miss an opportunity to improve their work.

Thanks for replying and I hope all goes well with future chapters. :)

Get better betas. Cause obviously, either the ones you have right now suck, or they're not being honest with you.

Excuse me, I think this is uncalled for. I don't mind you discussing the merits of the fic itself, but the onus of writing belongs on the writers. You have been repeatedly rude about our betas, and I think you need to stop being so insulting about a situation you're not privy to.

I'm not trying to be rude, and no offense to the betas, but I really think they're not being honest with you and I think that's unfortunate. There really shouldn't be that many mistakes in a betaed fic. I've read unbetaed stuff that had less mistakes, seriously. And it's unfortunate cause it's really well written as a whole, but seeing mistakes like those just make you want to stop reading sometimes.

So wait a second. Our betas are being dishonest with us because they don't catch all of our grammar errors? Most fic chapters are half the length of ours, if that, and while that's no excuse for sloppy mistakes, it does factor into things.

And I've already said that this is something I'll try to catch in the future, so I'm not really sure why we're still on the beta issue.

I'm not talking only about grammar errors. Phrasing as well, and stuff that simply doesn't make sense that they should tell you about. And trust me, some of what I spotted is nearly impossible to miss, especially if you have three betas like you said.

And, yes, you've pointed it out. I appreciate you doing so, but I've already said that I will try to make an extra effort to catch these errors. Perhaps that will also help lessen any confusion while reading.

As far as Phoenix goes...here's the bottom line. I'm not going to write a more introspective Phoenix. I am not going to go back and change the chapters so that Phoenix is more introspective. The way we write him is a deliberate choice, and is probably not going to change in the forseeable future. I'm sorry to any readers we might lose because of it, but that is what a lot of our fic hinges upon.

On the other hand, I fully admit that there is a difference between being subtle and opaque, and I hope anyone can tell us when there are points they had trouble understanding what was going on--if you honestly feel uncomfortable doing it under your name, both our ff.net account and Objection account accept anon reviews.

I believe that takes care of everything.

You never reply to reviews, though.

Beta here.

I'm being perfectly honest with Musouka and Raelle when I beta, just for the record. My own writing tends to be very stylized and loose grammatically, so perhaps I simply don't see the errors you talk about. But I disagree with some of the errors you're pointing out; the stuff you mention makes sense to me when I read it.

Well, if you have trouble spotting grammar errors, there should be someone else going over the fic specifically for that.

And what do you disagree with exactly?

Er, that the stuff you're talking about wasn't clear? It flowed well to me, nothing felt off, out of placed, or forced. It helps that I know--and agree with--the authors' interpretation of Phoenix, I guess. But it's all made sense to me... rather, I do read it closely, and I can't think of anything that DIDN'T make sense to me (that they haven't changed).

Well maybe that's the problem. You know the authors and their story too well, so of course, most of the things that would be confusing to normal readers won't be confusing to you.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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