fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3222 ]

[ SECRET POST #3222 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3222 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Death Parade]

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[From Dusk Till Dawn: The Series]

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[Sean Bean/Accused]

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[Bones/Sleepy Hollow]

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17. [WARNING for abuse/torture]

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18. [WARNING for suicide]

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19. [WARNING for non-con]

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20. [WARNING for pedophilia and incest]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #460.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

My sense (O fellow man) has never in the slightest been that the MRA movement is interested in fighting for me and people like me. My sense has never been that they care about men qua men. To the extent that they do, it's on the basis of an understanding of what makes a man that has always seemed obviously false to me. I do not think that they care for the person. I think they are more interested than anything in messing with feminists.

It is frustrating that there is no good, decent network and movement around supporting & fighting for men* - I do find myself jealous sometimes of the kind of support network that feminism has built up for women, because it's kind of amazing - but MRAs are a solution that's worse than the problem.

*as an adjunct to feminism, not something that replaces or is more important than feminism

I understand being jealous of the support networks and I always worry that my reaction to hearing about it sounds harsh. Because I wish men would do a better job of supporting each other in more than insulting feminists. Women have resources like women's shelters because they fought and worked hard for them in the face of people who thought they didn't really need them. Men need to step up and do the same thing instead of deciding that women should make similar resources for men in order to be fair. I know that comes across as sort of every gender for themselves and "well we had to deal with that so now it's your turn", but I do wish we could all help each other with these things. It's just that the way so many MRAs sit back and complain about feminists not doing this work for them and not doing anything to make these things happen themselves is really frustrating. If someone can point me to a men's group that is actually trying to support men and not just complaining that women aren't doing it for them, I would gladly support them.

I agree with all of that. I probably should have been clearer that I was criticizing the MRA movement there. I don't in any way think that it's feminists' responsibility to build those support networks. My point is just, the MRA movement is not doing that, in any way, at all. Because they suck.

Oh I wasn't criticizing you or anything. Mostly just reminded of this topic and feeling bad about how I haven't yet found a way to express this without coming across the way blitzwing interpreted my comment, which I completely understand. Part if the problem is that it seems like MRAs are less varied than feminists. There's a lot--a lot--of terrible feminist rhetoric out there and I always try to make it clear that I'm only referring to certain kinds of feminism since there's so much disagreement between different schools of feminist thought. But MRAs, partly because there are less of them, seem to have less variety in their arguments, and that makes it easier to fall into the trap of generalizing about them and by extension seem to be generalizing about all men. So maybe it's easier for a criticism of MRAs to sound more universal.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

So, what's your opinion on Earl Silverman? He ran a men's domestic violence shelter, and committed suicide because the government and others don't perceive male-victim DV as serious, and don't allocate funding for it.

You probably think that his complaint isn't real. And yet over and over again, feminists consistently speak of domestic violence in a way that completely erases the possibility of a female abuser. They do the same thing with rape. Many feminists will even tell victims, male or female, that they are derailing and statistically insignificant, not worth talking about, if they were victimized by a female.

"Women have resources because they worked hard, men are just lazy and toxic."

Sure. There is no bias that men aren't and can't be real victims, or that women can't victimize others. I can't even count how many times I've been told that I wasn't really abused because "women just can't hit as hard as men." No, it's just laziness and ~toxic patriarchy~.

Go fuck yourself.

Articulate a reasonable argument. Flinging insults won't win any favors.

I already did, but now my wrist is tired so...I'm going to talk to you until it's rested up and then I'll have another go.

That stuff is shitty as hell when feminists do it, yeah.

You probably think that his complaint isn't real.

No, not at all. I was going to give domestic violence against men not being taken seriously as an example of the serious problems that don't get enough attention because too many MRAs are busy insulting women instead of actually doing something to help men, but I already felt like I was rambling.

I don't think men are just lazy and toxic. I do think that there is more of a history of women working together to advocate for themselves, but the reasons for that are varied and complex and I think they have more to do with the perceptions of each gender than any inherent difference between them.

There is no bias that men aren't and can't be real victims, or that women can't victimize others.

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't believe that at all. I'm really sorry you've had to deal with that.

I'm glad to hear you support male victims.

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't believe that at all. I'm really sorry you've had to deal with that.

Maybe you didn't intentionally imply so, but to me your words implied that the reason why there aren't enough resources for men is because they aren't working to build resources and that MRAs only complain about feminism instead of doing that work. You did not mention the existence of any kind of bias against male victims or any other reason why they wouldn't have adequate resources. I'm sorry if I read more into that then you meant.

I think I lost track of where I said that men have serious problems that need more attention than they get and where I didn't (this isn't the only place this topic has come up for me lately). I'm sorry I didn't make that clear here.

I meant it when I said that I'd like to hear about organizations that are really trying to help. That wasn't a skeptical "I'll believe it when I see it" thing. It's just that I can't recall a MRA discussion I've seen that was actually focused on helping men rather than insulting women. It's specific MRAs that I've come across that it's directed at when I say that they need to support each other instead of expecting women to fix things for them, but I'm sorry I overgeneralized before. I don't believe that all men are doing that. And I get just as frustrated by feminists and people in other similar groups who seem more focused on insulting others than supporting each other.

>Sure. There is no bias that men aren't and can't be real victims, or that women can't victimize others. I can't even count how many times I've been told that I wasn't really abused because "women just can't hit as hard as men." No, it's just laziness and ~toxic patriarchy~

... I mean, yes. It is ~toxic patriarchy~ that makes people believe all that. To believe it's anything else, or that women somehow have enough political power to make the needs of men seem insignificant is a fucking joke. The reason men aren't taken seriously as victims is a combination of misogyny and homophobia, and a "man up!" culture. feminists aren't the ones perpetuating the idea that men who are victims are just crybabies, that's alllll on the patriarchy, sorry.

And yes, the men who consistently complain about female rape victims, or breast cancer getting "all the attention" should actually put their time and money where their mouth is and raise awareness for those causes if they're so significant. To just sit around and whine that one group gets attention and you don't, when that other group has worked their sweat and blood into a movement for hundreds of years is ridiculous. YES, it's laziness.

If "mens rights activists" actually gave a shit about men's rights, they could address the ways patriarchy hurts men, including the way it devalues male victims of violence. But they don't, they'd rather sit on their thumbs and whine about how women are privileged and they won't sleep with them. Or call men who don't agree with them "beta" or "cuckolds" (that definitely respects men who aren't traditionally masculine and discriminated against, amirite?) Because to acknowledge that those mean ole ~feminazis~ might be right, that patriarchy and gender roles being what they are are the reason men are oftentimes treated like shit, is too much for them.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3222 ]

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