fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3294 ]

[ SECRET POST #3294 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3294 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 072 secrets from Secret Submission Post #471.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Turin/Beleg - Turin is such an ass. Cursed or not, he should still be able to learn from his mistakes but he never does. I hate how many people suffer because of him, and it drives me crazy that I can't find good Beleg fic without him.

Fingon/Maedhros - Mostly a reaction to how huge it is and that I have other OTPs for these two. I'd like to see stories about Fingon that don't have anything to do with Maedhros and vice versa.

Kili/Thranduil - I am fine shipping dwarf/elf, even Thranduil/dwarf but I can't stand Kili or his actor. The popularity of this pairing boggles my mind. The prompts and fics for them are so OOC and filled with the worst cliches and laziest writing.

Melkor/Sauron - I know some people like "complicated" assholes or whatever but they are unredeemable and evil. I really dislike all the headcanon surrounding these two and how woobified they often are. Even when they're not, I don't give a fuck about the evil assholes who cause so much destruction and pain being in love with each other. I don't think it fits their characterization either. They're both too selfish to love anyone but themselves.

I totally get that it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I've very rarely seen actual woobification of either of them, though. I can think of like three examples.

Agreed on Turin/Beleg. Not quite a NOTP, but I really don't ship. And also agreed on Kili/Thranduil, though I dislike Thorin/Thranduil a bit more.

They're very woobified in the art that I see cross my dash, especially Sauron. I'd never touch a story of them.

I actually like Thranduil/Thorin, and as a straight-up ship, not a hate-ship, but I want the author to put in the work of mending their relationship first or using book!Thranduil instead. I've moved over to Bard/Thranduil now though. Thorin/Thranduil worked better for me after DoS but he was too much of an ass in BoFA, and the movie was a hot mess of all characterizations.

I'm not sure what you mean by woobified art honestly? Do you mean he's portrayed as pretty? Because that's canon. Or scenes where he isn't being evil? Because being evil doesn't mean a character has to be acting evil 100% of the time. I don't think you have to say or show "this character is evil" in every single post. I think the fandom recognizes that they are both really evil and unredeemable, they just also think that they have layers and would have moments of positivity. Like, we know Sauron is really into wolves, so there is a lot of art of him enjoying his wolves.

There is a lot of crack art, though. I hate the modern AU stuff that seems vaguely popular. I'm really glad Christmas is over because I got really sick of all the dark lords in Christmas sweaters art. But I guess I don't think of crack as woobifying because no one thinks it is actually canon.

I guess I've never come across fics that work for it. I could see it in that context. But I don't spend that much time in the Hobbit fandom anyway, and what I do see is 90% movie stuff. I'm much more interested in book fics.

Edited 2016-01-11 01:04 (UTC)

I don't mean how he's portrayed physically (although that third eye is really obnoxious when that shows up). I do think that any "positivity" should only be for Sauron and only pre-seduction during his time in Valinor. The whole point of these characters is that they are the embodiment of evil. They are uncaring and don't have kind feelings - not for orcs, or each other, or animals. These are all things to be used. There's no "good" side to appeal to.

Melkor especially should never have any moment where he is actually loving. His purpose in the design is to be the anti-love - the anti-Eru. He's only ever "kind" when he's manipulating things or he's pretending it out of fear. Sauron could maybe have an arc of moving towards that, but once he rejects Eonwe's command to go to Valinor, he's out for himself from then on. He's twisted and hateful; there's no love in him. I don't see that kind of character being especially loving before that choice either.

They're just the epitome of characters who do not understand love, and I can't see them having any attachment to anything but themselves. (And I also kind of think they hate themselves.)

Hmmm. Okay. I guess I just disagree with the idea that evil characters, even characters that are meant to be the embodiment of evil, can't have any positive traits at all.

And we do know that in canon Sauron at least is attached to Melkor at least in the sense of being a completely loyal servant devoted to using his skills to bring about Melkor's goals. That doesn't have to be love at all, but it is canon that he's loyal. So he is attached in a sense to Melkor at least. And it is canon that for Melkor Sauron is at least a bit different. He's second in command, and he's the one who carries out things and plans things. And every single other of Melkor's servants is physically altered in some way, but Sauron gets to stay himself.

Anyway, I totally get why people wouldn't ship or even wouldn't want to see positive traits. I just really strongly disagree with the idea that showing positive traits is woobifying.

I'm not saying showing positive traits is woobifying. That's actually two separate things for me. The woobying is a lot more how Sauron is so helpless to Melkor and all the crack-shit that I see (there's not an actual lot of them that's not crack, as I don't think there could be for this ship).

I also think that it depends what the positive trait is for an evil character and what the canon is. There are villains in other canons that I can see having good traits. I can see Saruman being decent back in the day. Osse was a step away from being Sauron but his love for his wife basically saved him. But Sauron does not have good traits. He is Melkor-lite. He wants to destroy and twist anything that's living to make a mockery of the Valar's and Eru's good work.

I don't think canon is what you think it is. We don't know how Melkor reacts when Sauron screws up. We don't know that Gothmog didn't like looking badass and scary. We don't know that there aren't other maiar who are allowed to keep their fair forms or that Sauron only keeps his so he can keep manipulating people for Melkor's ends. I feel that Sauron is the second in command because he's the most powerful and usually gets his job done. If something happened to him, I don't see Melkor caring any more than he would if a good sword broke. Sauron is a means to an end.

And I don't recall reading anything about Sauron trying to get Melkor back after the First Age. I recall him using Melkor's name, but why wouldn't you? It furthers Sauron's agenda. I don't have a problem with "evil" characters having positive traits if that's consistent with canon. But Melkor and Sauron are more caricatures than characters. When I say they are evil's embodiment, then that doesn't leave room for any good. Evil characters can have good traits but evil itself cannot because it's evil. These two are the latter so they cannot have good traits to be who they are. Like I said, there might be a little wiggle-room with Sauron but I think the only thing that attracts him to Melkor is Melkor's thirst for power and dominion. When he's gone, Sauron is happy to have that for himself. He only doesn't challenge Melkor because he's not powerful enough to and serving Melkor achieves his own ends but if they had won, Melkor would've ended up killing Sauron (or Sauron would've tried a coup) because there is no trust or love between them. There can't be to be who they are.

Okay, going to have to agree to disagree then because I don't see that interpretation in canon at all.

On the Kíli/Thranduil front, I agree and will go as far as to say I don't like any of the Elf/Dwarf pairings that have cropped up out of The Hobbit movies. Thorin/Thranduil, Kíli/Tauriel, Legolas/anyone (at least at this stage - I don't feel anything about Legolas/Gimli).

In fact about the only Elf/Dwarf pairings I like are either Celebrimbor/Durin III, or another pairing that only exists in the RP I have with a friend, and the dwarf is an OC.

I have also gone off pairings that break up such canon couples as Aragorn/Arwen and Faramir/Éowyn. I don't actively ship either, but I like them in the background.

Oh, and I'll also add Kíli/Thorin to that list of nOTPs, more due to over-exposure, though RP has had it effect on that as well.

Ooo, I've never thought about Celebrimbor/Durin III. I do ship Celebrimbor/Narvi. Mostly I just want happy Celebrimbor, though I also love tortured, tragic, angsty Celebrimbor because I love watching my favorites all miserable. But I do hope he gets to be happy in Valinor, though I'm not sure who I'd pair him with there. He should get a happy ending, though.

I think Celebrimbor is one of the easiest elves to pair with dwarves though because not only did he have a friendship with them (a close one at that), but he's kind of dwarf like in personality at least a bit.

I have to admit, the Celebrimbor/Durin II pairing comes from RP as well, and there it is treated as angsty because there was conflict over Cel's friendship with Annatar and it ended up tragic because Durin tried to save Cel's life but died doing so.

At best the happiest endings he's had so far is mostly reuniting with family (this is RP where Maedhros and Maglor are alive).

Yes, there aren't many actually happy endings in the Silmarillion. I just like to imagine elves being reborn in Valinor and getting to heal and be happy. Mostly I just really, really love Tyelpe and want him to get a little bit of happiness given how horrible his end was.

I'm no good at RP, but I do like to follow some of the Tumblr RPers. There are some pretty cool AUs people have created. Yours sounds awesome.

Yes, that's one of the ideas I like, being reborn and getting to recover. I know in one of my current timelines in RP it has been confirmed that the youngest Fëanorion has been allowed to be reborn and lives with his mother and grandfather (this is going on the idea that he got killed when Fëanor burned the boats).

I have to say the AU I RP is not all my own doing, large tracts of it are based on Valandhir's fanfic, including Maedhros, Maglor and Telpë being alive. My side of it is more to do with the Silmarils, and a lot of the Dragon Age crossover parts.

oh its u rabid turin hater/beleg stan

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