fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3367 ]

[ SECRET POST #3367 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3367 ⌋

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Notes:

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Can you give me a current example of fascists showing up? I'm assuming you're not equating chalked campaign slogans to fascism.

I don't like using the word fascist without it meeting the actual definition (words mean things!). That's why I used the word "thug" instead.

But look at how protesters are treated at Trump rallies. They're not only getting roughed up, the guy at the podium is encouraging it.

But look at how protesters are treated at Trump rallies.

This. This unbelievable willful ignorance. This infuriating double standard. This is why I have to abandon the left. Trump supporters and Trump protesters are the same exact person in my mind now.

No I'm pretty sure you abandoned the left because all these people actually wanting things to change triggered you.

Here's your red hat what's your hurry?

But yeah, I'm not saying the guy in the Trump shirt is the same as the idiot punching protesters. But you know what? A lot of the pro-Trump people are cheering while that happens. That's scary as fuck.

Edited 2016-03-24 00:43 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on that view? Not sure where you're coming from.

I touched a bit on my concerns downthread. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bow out now because I'm just really fucking tired of being attacked by my own political party.

It looks like people here are politely disagreeing, not attacking?

DA

Is anyone else finding it funny that being offended by chalk is babies crying to anon, but disagreements with them is attacks? I hope this isn't the same person that thinks the college students are overreacting because the hypocrisy is real if it is...

AYRT - Not in this thread but in general.

If you're the anon from downthread, I think you get it. Being on the left means embracing progress, but I'm concerned about the use of illiberal tactics to achieve that progress. But every time I mention those tactics - banning speakers, doxxing people, blocking highways, FFS, slapping police horses - I get called a conservative or a Trump supporter, and god, it's tiresome. But I get your point, too. You think illiberalism calls for illiberal tactics.

Anon from downthread (but not AYRT) & I want to clarify: I don't think illiberalism always justifies illiberal tactics. I think it comes down to cases. But, yes, I think there are times where that's the proper response.

With regards to the first point, I sympathize, for sure. It's a tricky line to maintain. And I think the... immediacy of the threat people feel, the moral aspect of it, it's not surprising that things get inflamed, but it's also extremely frustrating. And, like, just personally, being on the other side of this issue from you, I'm not happy about any of this. I'm horribly gloomy and depressed and constantly worried.

I'm horribly gloomy and depressed and constantly worried.

Well, I think that's what marks us as liberals. The right is just fuming mad.

Fascism is obviously a hugely weighted term. So let's consider it on two levels: as a historical comparison, and as a term of rhetoric.

As a historical comparison, does the Trump phenomenon bear the weight of the term? Well, there are a lot of senses in which fascism is specific to the post-WWI milieu - the emphasis on the modern and novelty, for instance. On the other hand, when you look at things like the rejection of fact, the emphasis on violence in action and rhetoric, the total disinterest in ideological consistency or coherence, the appeal to a mythologized past - those things are I would say clearly present in Trump and his followers, and that's profoundly worrying.

From a rhetorical point of view, what is the use of fascism meant to denote? It is meant to - first - associate something with a tradition of radical, violent right-wing politics - to separate it from the political mainstream as something distinct and distinctly threatening - and second to call up the idea that opposition to the thing is necessary both politically and morally. And I think the Trump campaign is distinctly dangerous, in the open violence of its rhetoric and it's whole-sale rejection of liberal norms, and I think that kind of respons is merited.

So in other words: what I am shortcutting here is the idea that the Trump campaign belongs in a lineage of violent, radical, anti-liberal democratic, dangerous right wing political movement, and I think worry and concerted action are both justified on those grounds. I hope this answers your question.

Would you agree that maybe "authoritarian" is a better word for people studying Trump?

I'm speaking in terms of formal analysis rather than just normal discussion. For the latter you can't really get as visceral as the F word and it's less important to be precise.

Edited 2016-03-24 00:47 (UTC)

To be honest, I think fascist is really much more accurate. The advantage of authoritarian is that it's less freighted and easier to use. But the pitch and tenor of Trump's run - the wild unpredictability, the hostility to the establishment, the faith in the character of the man as savior, the pronounced irrationalism - those are things that are much, much closer to fascism for me than they are to authoritarianism. It's not like he's appealing to a visceral desire for order or spending a ton of time talking about national honor, nor does he as a political figure really have the qualities you'd associate with an authoritarian figurehead. So, really, no, from a political science view I think fascist is a more accurate term. If you wanted to avoid the politicization, I'd go to right-wing populist before authoritarian.

Do you know what I, as a liberal, consider anti-liberal? Infringing on others' right to free speech and free assembly. This is equally as alarming and disgusting to me as the hatred and bigotry on the right. They are both rooted in authoritarianism.

Well, one, I don't agree that they're both rooted in the same thing necessarily, but that's a minor point and I do see where you're coming from.

My thing is, I would also call myself a liberal in the sense you're using it here. And I agree that the protests are, in a meaningful sense, illiberal. But to me, Donald Trump represents precisely the kind of threat that justifies illiberal action. This is precisely the case where these kinds of protests are justified because the basic idea of a liberal body politic is what Trump threatens.

Liberalism is not a suicide note and there are movements and views that absolutely threaten it. And ultimately to me a belief in liberalism entails a belief that sometimes there are times you have to stop this kind of threat to maintain liberalism. It's an existential threat.

But that is just my view.

Yes, I understand that view.

Where we disagree is that I don't believe anything justifies authoritarianism. Not even Trump.

Not anything at all? Go down with the ship and be buried on your principles, that kind of thing?

Yes. Freedom is that important to me. Everything else depends on it in a democratic society.

Would you say the freedom to destroy freedom is more important than the preservation of freedom?

I'll say this: I believe those fighting to preserve freedom by protesting Trump are doing the right a favor. The more outrageous the protests, the better he looks to his nutjob supporters, and the less stable the protesters look to moderates.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3367 ]

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That's an awesome breakdown, but:

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