[ SECRET POST #3432 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3432 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[Flaky Pastry]



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02. http://i.imgur.com/kqv1lD2.gifv
[Homestuck, gif]


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03. [SPOILERS for Fire Emblem Fates]




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04. [SPOILERS for Game of Thrones]




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05. [SPOILERS for Captain America: Civil War]




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06. [WARNING for all common triggers/general discussion of triggering material]




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07. [WARNING for rape]























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #490.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

T'Challa is also not a narcissistic psychopath.

[ariakas]

Touché.

[luxshine]

Neither is Tony.

Because if Tony WAS a narcissitic psychopath, Bucky would've dead and so would be Steve (see Repulsor ray to the face)

I get people hating Tony (I personally can't stand 616-Tony, nor Ultimate Tony. MCU Tony is only tolerable as long as he is with Rhodey, Pepper, Happy or Bruce to give some balance to his personality) but there is a point in which I think they're thinking of a completely different character the way the haters describe him.

[(Anonymous)]

Tony uses people and discards them, does anything for attention, and blames all his worst actions on everyone else. That's like half the criteria for narcissism and psychopathy.

[luxshine]

And if we were talking about 616-Tony or Ultimates-Tony I'd agree with you.

but MCU Tony has been suffering with untreated PTSD the whole time we've seen him. From Iron Man 1 to Ca:CW, which I think gives him a bit of a pass.

I mean, if we're giving Bucky a pass because he was fucking brainwashed (And yes, I am. I do not blame Bucky for the Stark's deaths or anyone else's. But that doesn't mean that if the brainwashing isn't undone, if anyone finds that fucking notebook, everyone is in danger from Bucky), then we have to give Tony a pass because he is not of sound mind.

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, no. Brainwashed to the point that you literally have no control over what you're doing is not the same as being complete aware of what you're doing and not giving a shit.

Bucky gets a pass because he literally can't control what he does when he's in Winter Soldier mode. He WANTED to stop himself and he couldn't.

Tony does not care, and he flat-out said so. He knows exactly what he's doing, he knows it's wrong, and he just. doesn't. care.

[luxshine]

I do not take Tony's words about not caring at face value because he IS suffering from PTSD and one of the easiest way to deflect is to say that you don't care (So people don't realize that you care, a lot). And intentions do matter, and I am pretty sure that Tony didn't WANT to create a murder robot, and he didn't WANT people to die on his watch (As THAT is part of his trauma). So while I do want him to be taken to task for his actions in universe, I do not think he is the devil incarnate (That'd be Ross)

And again: I do not blame Bucky for his actions as the Winter Soldier. HOWEVER, his trigger words are still out there for someone to find. Which means that, even if he is an unwilling participant, Bucky is STILL a danger. And one bigger than Tony PRECISELY because what he has can't be fixed with therapy.

[(Anonymous)]

I do not take Tony's words about not caring at face value because he IS suffering from PTSD

What the actual fuck. Congratulations, you're robbing people with mental illness of agency in order to defend the actions of a fictional character. Holy shit.

NAYRT

[(Anonymous)]

You know what? I have PTSD. That comment is not robbing me of my agency any more than your comment is.

And, as someone with PTSD from very fun situation, you don't get to speak for me.

Re: NAYRT

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't reply to an anon, shithead. You can take your fake street cred somewhere else because you're clearly a fucking moron.

[lady_dragoon]

And intentions do matter, and I am pretty sure that Tony didn't WANT to create a murder robot, and he didn't WANT people to die on his watch (As THAT is part of his trauma).

Then you would think, rather than passing off responsibility for all the deaths and destruction he did, in fact, cause on the rest of his teammates who had no part in the creation of Ultron, he might actually take personal responsibility for what happened at Sokovia, rather than badmouth the very thing that saved the world's bacon from his murderbot (unsanctioned vigilante justice).

I agree calling him a psychopath may be a little harsh, but he definitely has narcissistic traits. Lots of them.

[luxshine]

I am pretty sure we were supposed to think Tony was in the wrong about the agreements. Also I think that for Tony, given his attitude in Iron Man 2, getting under the goverment control WAS a way to take responsability, as misguided as it was.

OTOH, if we're only calling him Selfish and Selfcentered (Which is a little less loaded than actually diagnosing him as narcissitic, which implies he can't care about other people) I completely agree and have no argument against it. As yes, he IS selfish and selfcentered, and his way of showing he cares is really lacking.

[lady_dragoon]

To be honest, I really don't think he's capable of caring for others unless he finds them useful in some capacity. Whether as unwitting pawns or some other donkey to pin the tail on whenever his hands get too dirty. I wouldn't say he's a full-blown narcissist, but he does have some narcissistic traits.

He refuses to take responsibility for his mistakes. He projects his behavior onto others. He doesn't involve his teammates in important decisions, and then gets mad at them for not trusting him. He refuses to understand, respect, or even acknowledge anyone else's point of view, or admit when they're right and he's not. He will not think twice about throwing his so-called friends under the proverbial bus to save his own neck.

These are flaws that are not in any way related to PTSD, and pointing out that these traits make him highly irritating character to watch isn't ignoring his storyarc. It's in fact acknowledging that his storyarc still has a long way to go.

[luxshine]

He cares for Pepper, Rhodey, Happy, Bruce, and Coulson, for example. I'd add Natasha, but I can't pinpoint an exact scene for that.

And he cares deeply for all of them. If you can't see that, then I recommend you watch the Iron Man trilogy and Avengers without your Tony-hate glasses on.

(and for fucks sake, all his Iron Man Career is about redeeming himself in his own eyes for the time he was the merchant of death. HIS mistake, HIS dirty hands. He didn't say "well, that was Obie" and washed his hands. He KEPT working at fixing the mess he had made, even if the way he did it was "irritating")

In any case, we're going in circles. I should've known better than to defend Tony in the current MCU-fandom, right after they adapted the storyarc that murdered his character in 616. I guess I'll have to wait until some genious in marketing decides to adapt the current Captain America comic storyline for Steve to be considered the most evil person in the MCU.

[(Anonymous)]

But Tony did want to kill Bucky. He knew what he was doing and was in control of his own actions, he knew it was wrong, and he tried to do it anyway.

So no, the insanity defense does not hold up for Tony.

[luxshine]

He had JUST seen a videotape of his parents being murdered by Bucky.

Like, seconds before.

And in this particular movie? We get told that he had been relieving the night they died ifor his weird therapy project.

I am sorry, but I think that gives him a bit of a leeway. Especially as once he managed to get some time and distance, he didn't go AFTER Bucky or Steve. In fact, he pretty much proved he was in favor of Steve freeing the other Avengers.

(I mean, T'challa was pretty much for "let's kill Bucky on sight" practically the whole movie. By the time they discovered it had been Zemo, he had actually gotten distance between his father's murder and his feelings, thus he was able to think a bit more clearly. And was 10000% times crueler.)

[(Anonymous)]

Like I said above, I could see Tony lashing out momentarily, but that's not what he did.

[lady_dragoon]

but MCU Tony has been suffering with untreated PTSD the whole time we've seen him. From Iron Man 1 to Ca:CW, which I think gives him a bit of a pass.

Fuck you and fuck off. Mental illness isn't a Get Out of Douchebag Free card.

[luxshine]

Sigh.

No. it is not. However it is a "have some empathy and understanding" card.

Do I want Tony to be taken to task for the things he has done wrong? Yes, I do.

Do I think Tony is a monster for the things he did because he is suffering from PTSD? No, I don't.

And also, he is not a douchebag to everyone 100% of the time. He has people he is loyal to. We've seen his good side (mostly on his own movies, and in the first Avengers). So Excuse me for not jumping into the "let's hate Tony Stark bandwagon" right away.

(Unless we're talking about 616-Tony. I was in the hate 616-Tony bandwagon long BEFORE it was cool to be there)

[lady_dragoon]

If you want him to be taken to task for his actions, don't use "but he has PTSD!" as a defense when he's actually being called out on his shit.

[luxshine]

I forgot to add "in universe" (although I added it in some other answer)

BEcause unless you ARE in the MCU universe and are somehow contacting this reality through the internet, then you are not someone who can take Tony to task for his actions.

I want to see the consequences on his life for creating Ultron (in his own movie. Or Avengers. Not in the Captain America movie). I want to see how his relationship with Pepper went on (or was destroyed) after Iron Man 3. I really want to see how is he coping now that Jarvis is Vision and thus no longer 24/7 around him. And more importantly, I want to see the day when he realizes he has to step down from being Iron Man and get some Therapy (And if said Therapy comes with the introduction of Dr. Samson to the MCU, I will be GLAD)

But I am tired of the "Tony is the worst evil in the MCU" meme that has been permeating the fandom since Age of Ultron because it always seems to me as if people are completely ignoring Tony's storyarc just to think the worst of him.

[lady_dragoon]

Unfortunately, you've just admitted he doesn't have much of a storyarc beyond "screwing up epically and never having to answer for it." And you're blaming people for hating his character because he's been an unrepentant douchebag and telling them to go easy on him Because PTSD? Do you see the problem, here?

[dragonscrawl]

I think Doc Samson's already appeared in the MCU...but then again, I think that was back in the Hulk movie and the MCU's not exactly big on incorporating its characters into ongoing events.

[(Anonymous)]

Um, the person you are describing here sounds only vaguely similar to the Tony of MCU.

[(Anonymous)]

Nah that's Tony in a nutshell.