Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-04-06 05:53 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-04-06 05:53 pm
[ SECRET POST #457 ]
⌈ Secret Post #457 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 340 secrets from Secret Submission Post #066.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 - empty comment ], [ 1 - what ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 54, 55
Historically there were times when we used names and titles similar to the Japanese, such as when the Ton was at it's height, and many of those words, though not in common use, are still recognizable to us. Yeah, it might be a little abnormal, but if it flows well...I don't get called Ms. Hanson often but I've only been called Hanson-San a few times, so really, in ENGLISH the former is less odd. And since you're translating it to English you should find the most fitting AND common, familiar terms. The person is pointing out that the second part is where the laziness is coming in. -San, -Chan, -Kun etc. are NOT common in our language, and the Translators are luck/lazy (I more see it as the former) that they don't have to deal with it, because it's general knowledge among their target audiences what they entail. There ARE translator who don't get to get away with that (in their defense, manga/anime translators also don't get anything but dialog to convey meaning, which makes it harder)
No, teacher isn't always switchable with Sensei, BUT someone who worked hard enough could find proper words to get the feel and meaning of it, and keep it in the flow of the story. They're saying the lazy is not doing as such.
Re: 54, 55
And they DO work hard and they DO have professional people who has to have a high mastery to be a professional translator. The reason they delete honorifics in the first place BECAUSE THERE IS NO ENGLISH EQUIVALENT. NONE. Zip. Nada. Zilch. without losing the original meaning.
Dear god, it's not like it's the first time that translators left Japanese words in. Like Japanese dishes or terms, they can be translated if they so pleased (Like my book on Shinsengumi left the markers for districts in of Kyoto in it). I'm not going through the various other languages that left the term in the original state. Like the Harry Potter book with their usage of British expressions when it could be replaced with American expressions despite have almost the same language.
You think it's sloppy, I think you're over exaggerating and overlooking the importance of addressing people in Japan. Despite it been in English, an translation doesn't need to be Americanized. And it's not like translators don't provide translation notes.
The fans don't get up in arms like you think. Viz removes the honorifics in some of their work and no one called for a witch burning or anything like that (well, they do and it's mostly because they can't edit thing worth a shit.) Even with the so called pursist in popular anime forum more often won't list the lack of honorifics in a list of problems with the American translations. So on, the fanbrats aren't that much of an influence as you like to think it is. Most of these companies done it on their OWN accord.
Re: 54, 55
You're a shining example. Assuredly.
And you obviously either haven't been in fandom enough, or go in very small circle to have not seen fans getting in kerfluffes over that. You speak like you've been around since before leaving in suffixes was rather common, but your lack of being aware of fandom then seems the opposite.
And you're still confusing TECHNICALLY knowing English with being creative in English. There's a difference...it's the difference between blue prints and a Monet. All translators know the language, they're not all creative with it.
And you underestimate English. It has one of the largest vocabulary, you could find words. Out of 995,112 a creative person with a wide vocabulary could find a fitting way to catch the nuiances and not sound archaic.
Re: 54, 55
I think you're OVERESTIMATING English to be honest, and besides not everyone uses most of the words of the language anyway. Like how Japanese have about 50000 kanji to choose from about regularly only use around 3,000 or more regularly. Like I said, if you're going to use some archaic word that you will have to explain ANYWAY. So the point comes moot in the end.
English is just like other languages in that:
1) It can't translate every word in every language. For example, Del Rey's decision to keep "hitsuzen" in xxxHolic in Japanese because translating into fate or destiny would be wrong because "hitsuzen" doesn't exactly mean that. You have some bizarre idea that translators didn't mull over the decision to keep Japanese honorifics or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
2) Doesn't make a word we absolutely won't need. There wasn't any need for any honorifics outside Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms., so we don't need any more. Have they been some other honorifics beside those? Maybe, but they're so antiquated, no one uses it anymore. It would be extremely odd if someone used an extremely antiquated term in English. Hell, I remember some conversation (who don't speak a lick of Japanese) get perplexed of one translation of a certain manga translating all the "-san" as Mr., finding it extremely formal then it wasn't the case.
I don't think you don't take account of the culture of English speaking countries either. The reason we have so few honorifics because we don't adopt the same attitudes about addressing people like some Asian culture, which is a really big deal for them. It's common to call someone by their first name or nickname, if their name has a common nickname, on the first meeting. Unless they're a strict teacher, doctor, or some lawyer. Hell, we even address our bosses by their first name most of the time. A long time ago, it was common to call people in a higher social status by "Miss", "Mr.", etc. But clearly we don't use that anyone unless we want to be extremely formal.
You keep on believing that they haven't tried alternatives after nearly 20 years. They did, and they were pretty retarded to say in the least.
Re: 54, 55
A) I have a shit tons of respect for translator, particular those of XXholic/Tsubasa as they go into very illuminating detail about WHY they did things the way they did, and owned up to the Fai/Fye thing.
B) I assumed anime fans aren't as silly as you seem to think they are and would figure out the cultural difference without a glossary if they were written well. I assume someone would know if they were calling someone say, Madame, even though we don't commonly use it anymore in this language. I also think that's a talent that is rare in ANY translation (Writing around words that don't translate right), not just Japanese, and think that for manga they are smarter not to try to write around it. I just think that it could be done well with out it by a talented person. I hold nothing against the translators that it is their job to get the message across as cleanly and neatly as possible. But that doesn't means that a talented person couldn't do it. I also think you're getting wrapped up in finding a WORD to replace the words, as oppose to a phrase, sentence, or whatever may work for what ever situation. (I.e. Replacing Seishirou's use of -kun on Subaru with something along the lines of "He said his name in a mocking tone." Which, as I pointed out above wouldn't work so well in Manga, as they only have dialog. However, as I also pointed out, I am not an amazingly creative writer)
Think it's smarter=/= it not being able to be done. Also it being done badly before=/=it not being able to be done. If you've been involved in the fandom for so long, you'll know a lot of those previous effort weren't exactly quality, or being done to reach any high standard. (See "Bunny" to replace "Usagi-chan" in Sailor Moon)
However, you're really making a lot of uneducated biased assumptions, and coming off as, well, a bit obsessive over it having to only be ONE WAY EVER. I'm really tired of yelling at a brick wall of a "OMG they translated it wrong!" fanbrat, even if you do happen to be a pretty well written one.
Re: 54, 55
I'm not making uneducated biases as much your making assumptions that it can be done in a "creative" way without even giving examples, actually endorsing using archaic words that you have to end up explaining anyway (and they have to really archaic going past Old English because there was very, very few outside royal titles and yes I had to read a good amount of literature in Old English), ignoring the cultural differences in both English and Japan and how that's reflected in the structure of the language (more specifically in honorifics), and ignoring that there has been efforts but they failed because it was more awkward than simply leaving it be and give a detail explanation on it and also give a glimpse on Japanese culture since the language is pretty crucial to it anyway.
If they want to do a more accurate translation, it's best to leave them in and explain their significance. They can leave them out if they so please, but dear god, don't replace them with awkward words either.
Nice calling me a fanbrat though seeing that you can debate without namecalling (or knowing what a fanbrat really is, I hope you don't call anyone who disagree with you that). Really a pity. I tired of trying to convince someone who refuse to listen why either.