fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3616 ]

[ SECRET POST #3616 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3616 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #517.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I have to admit... I am not liking Mary at ALL. The revelation that when Dean was 2 years old she abandoned him and John to go on a hunt and STILL wouldnt use the most basic defense lines in her house against Azazael made me wince and the way she's been treating the boys (Dean in particular) makes me want to scream because while I understand the whole feeling lost and needing to find her own place in a world that moved on without her, I just don't get why she would just ignore the people who COULD help her do that.

Also, hate to say it but the SPN writers are nothing but predictable so I am pretty sure she will end up being Lucifer's vessel (After all, his is the Campbell line, if the writers remember that) and thus, dead by the end of the season.

OtOH, I love Jody and Donna and if anyone could make me like Mary a bit better would be those two becoming her friend.

I blame the Mary stuff mostly on the writers not knowing what they are doing and the fact that I don't think there were ever intending on making Mary a hunter in the beginning.

Because yeah, it is really hard to work out how Mary could one day leave her family to hunt and then the next not even bother to fight a demon she knew was coming.

I agree with the other anon. You have to understand when Kripke wrote Supernatural's pilot angels didn't exist in the show. He meant them to be a myth, he even protested loudly against them until the development of fourth season. They might have not existed at all if for the writer's strike because originally Sam was supposed to save Dean in 3rd season but they had to scrap that plan.

So yeah, Mary wasn't a hunter when she died. She was originally just a plot device to jump start the plot. She was created to just die and no one thought about who she was as a character for the entire first season, just like Jessica only Mary has actually gotten fleshed out and Jessica remains a complete cypher to this day. Supernatural's continuity has been terrible since day one and has never gotten any better with new show runners. It's world building also is very weak. The thing about demons being corrupted human souls was Ben Edlund's idea in third season. Where monsters come from wasn't thought about or dealt with at all until the sixth.

This thing about Mary taking a hunting trip even after having Dean is, I agree, ridiculous in light of not protecting her house against Azazel at all but I don't expect better from this show.

I'm answering just to you, but it's for both of you anons.

All the way up to the last episode? I was on board with forgiving Mary for not defending herself from Azazel since I KNOW that when the pilot aired Kripke had no intention of making Mary a hunter and that was an extra addition for season 4.

HOWEVER, as you point out, the writers in season 12 know that Mary was a hunter and had a thousand possible ways to explain why she hadn't defended herself from Azazael in season 1 to choose from (Fanfic most popular one is "angels erased her memory after Song Remains the Same).
The fact that they decided to add a hunting trip when Dean was 2 years old? THAT is what made me go and say, sorry, but if I take Mary's character lineally? Then she's a dumbass that deserved to get killed for doing the exact same thing that Sam does every time he "quits" (namely, hide his head in the sand and pretend that because he doesn't care about the supernatural world, the supernatural world can't hurt him)

Tl:Dr version? I get why Mary died the way she did in a Doylean perspective, that doesn't change the fact that in a Wastonian perspective she's an idiot.

Not disagreeing with you, but I suppose I have my expectations of Supernatural adjusted or maybe lowered to no longer be surprised and disappointed that The Powers that Be ignore character traits, their mythology, the history of the show, whatever to make an episode work especially if it's a MotW. I don't blame Mary, I blame the the writers.

The best defense I can give for Mary is what someone else said where the werewolf was one that got away from Mary and probably her father so it was something she felt she needed to finish for her parents. I think that's an acceptable reason that makes her look not stupid or like a bad mother. (Doesn't make her look so great as a wife though, since she lied her ass off to John.) Anyway, her forgetting about Azazel was because her mind was messed with by angels to make it happen, like you said is best answer I suppose but we might as well say "a wizard did it."

That's too bad. I'm enjoying her. Personally, since the angels went around wiping out memories left and right, I sometimes wonder if the demon didn't mess with Mary and make her kind of forget. Hard to say, but it's a very irritating stitch-drop on the part of the writers.

Unless they mean to say that, since Mary made a deal, something horrible (John being suddenly years dead/taken to hell/Mary being taken to hell/dying) might happen if she tried to keep the demon out. I dunno. It always kinda bothered me, too.

And to she *abandoned* him seems a bit harsh. She said she'd been tracking that werewolf for a long time - I'm thinking it was a hunt left over from her dad and/or mom's hunting days, a loose thread she was trying to clean up. Like, perhaps the werewolf knew the Campbells/Mary/hunters, and she didn't feel safe knowing it was out there.

I...can't see her being Lucifer's vessel, but that's interesting.

See, up until the last episode I was with you. Angels can wipe out memories and they wanted Sam to be fed demon blood and the brothers to be outcasts from society so making sure Mary died IS a logical strategy.

But for me "left without explanation for at least a week when I have a 2 year old son at home" is abandonment (and it had to be at least a week if she drove all the way to Canada for that hunt), and added to the fact that now they have made that Mary the homemaker is a complete lie? It makes the whole argument in Dean's memory in Dark Side of the Moon take a completely different tint for me (She's complaining about John leaving them alone for long periods of time, after a fight. Given that in that memory Dean is about three? That means that John's absence could be tied to an argument about THAT hunt)

I know I am harsh to Mary. But given that the show has made it perfectly clear that this is yet again a "stupid Dean who needs to learn a lesson about letting go" plot, I am not very willing to give the writers a chance.

(the Lucifer's vessel thing is a very popular theory among some friends. I just called it because that's the easiest way to throw Mary back into the fridge, and the SPN writers are nothing but good at shoving women into refrigerators. Plus it would be an echo to when Eve took Mary's form, and they also plagiarize a lot of the earlier seasons now)

Finally, the fact that I am not liking her now doesn't mean I think no one can enjoy her. Actually, I hope more people like her. Maybe that way they won't kill her. And given SPN's record with female characters, I REALLY want to be wrong about her becoming Lucifer's vessel and dying.

I guess we just see things pretty differently. Adults are allowed to have time to themselves, children or not, and I'm sure she told John something, though obviously not about hunting.

I always felt that John and Mary having a rocky relationship was mostly due to the angels/a cupid basically *forcing* them to 'fall in love' - part of the big plan, they had to marry and have offspring! So who knows just *how* in love, or attracted, they actually were?

It...never crossed my mind that the plot was saying Dean was 'stupid' or needed to let go of anything. *shrug* To each their own.

I've had the same thoughts about John and Mary. Their relationship is actually really fucked up and sad because they were mind raped into falling in love all so they could bring the boys into the world. Plus, John never even knew who Mary was the whole time they were together. So is it any surprise they had a rocky relationship? I've also wondered if John's reaction to Mary's death, never getting over it, unable to be their for the boys, his obsession to find Azazel, all of that was because of the Mark of Union on his heart. If he didn't have that would he have reacted to Mary's death in a more healthy way?

Exactly. It was really pretty nasty all the way 'round. I think finding out Mary had this other, darker, more violent and 'unnatural' life before him (in spite of him), also made his reaction that much more obsessive and unhealthy.

Plus, I'll never not be convinced he wasn't suffering from some level of PTSD from being in Vietnam.

(This whole 'get these people together so we can make these vessels' thing is also the reason i get so mad when the boys are blamed for stuff like breaking the seal, etc. They were manipulated *before they were born*, and liked to by demons and angels alike. How the hell were they supposed to make good/right/health decisions?)

A lot of people don't like John, for totally legit reasons I'll give you, but because of this the fandom doesn't try to empathize with him or understand him. I think he's more interesting and tragic than most people give him credit.

It's a headache to suss out how much of the Winchester's actions is their fault and how much is angels and demons pulling their strings but their are certainly situations where the boys shouldn't have all of the blame.

Fandom seems so polarized with John. He's either a sad, determined woobie, grieving and lost, or he's an emotionless abuser. No in between.

But all you have to do is watch the boys around, hear them talk about him, see their actions re: civilians and non-hunters, and you *know* he was a lot more than that.

Yeah, the boys are not spotless, they've made some *bad* decisions. But so much of what was going on was out of their control, and they did the best they could in circumstances most people wouldn't have survived.

All part of our wonderful Show. :)

My tumblr is amyrat151 if you have a tumblr and want to talk more.

I *am* on tumblr, but mine is mostly for reposting pretty things and enjoying all the .gifs (I find actual conversation on Tumblr impossible).

But feel free to follow, if you like. :)
http://cheynelightning.tumblr.com/

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[ SECRET POST #3616 ]

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