fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #477 ]

[ SECRET POST #477 ]

⌈ Secret Post #477 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 393 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (lolol) 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ], [ 1 - person has TOO MUCH FREE TIME ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Why would they be hesitant when they all heard Genome heartlessly abandoned her and Adiane, the enemy, almost killed her? The Gurren-Dan are not the kind of people to hold a grunge, this would go against their entire philosophy.

They are open, friendly people, that much is true. But for EVERYONE to suddenly love Nia within the span of a few minutes so soon after Kamina's death did nothing to weaken the whole "Nia is a Sue" argument. Like one anon said above, it was the combination of her many qualities that made her a Sue, not simply one or two.

First: Why would they hate Nia due to Kamina's death? They didn't show any "love" for Nia until episode 12, which happened weeks after episode, in which she earned their respect.

Second: Which qualities? Which quality actually stands-out among the Gurren-Lagann larger-than-life cast?

Third: She is not a Sue. You think she is a Sue. Different things.

First: I never said they should hate Nia, just that they should have shown more uncertainty before fawning after her like in the beach episode.

Second: The typical sueish qualities of : 1. Being a princess. 2. Tragic backstory. 3. Her physical appearance. 4. Having the magnetic ability to make almost everyone she comes in contact with love her. 5. Heroic sacrifice at the end. It's the combination of them that makes her one, IMO.

Third: She is a Sue. You think she is not one. That is why I asked you before what your definition of a Sue is, because the criteria for what makes one has become so skewed over the years and we clearly have different ideas of what makes one.

First: The same group of people that foolishly walked into an obvious trap by Guame and later the Anti-Spiral show uncertainty? Really? They just follow their heart.

Second: Those are not "Sue" traits, those are shoujo heroine traits. Besides... since when is a "tragic backstory" a Mary Sue trait? Not to mention every single main character that died in Gurren-Lagann did so in a sacrificial, heroic fashion. You're grasping at straws in here.

Third: What is a Mary Sue for you? A larger-than-life female character?

First: Like I said before, it was their immediate adoration of her combined with her other traits that made her a Sue.

Second: Are you serious? Tragic backstory is one of the prominent sue factors in fanfics. And as I said MULTIPLE times before, it was the COMBINATION of her traits (heroic sacrifice included) that made her a Sue. But this all ties into my next point...

Third: Accroding to wikipedia, a Sue "a term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot on such a scale that suspension of disbelief fails due to the character's traits, skills and abilities being tenuously or inadequately justified." Gee, this sure sounds a lot like Nia. And, before you jump on the defensive, it sounds like Kamina too. And I also believe he is a Stu, but for different reasons than Nia.

And why are you so quick to assume I'm automatically against female characters with special abilities? I dislike male characters similar to her for the same reason. Don't bring gender into this, especially if I never alluded to anything otherwise.

And you STILL never answered the question I first asked: What's YOUR definition of a Sue?

A Sue is a character that kills suspension of disbelief, plain and simple. Nia never broke suspension of disbelief, hence she is not a Mary Sue. I don't think what you quoted for Nia from Wikipedia helps your point either, since Nia's traits were justified and she never went against what was stated as "logic" in the Gurren-Lagann universe. Kamina is not a Stu for similar reasons. Try reading what you post, please.

Really? I find it incredibly hard to believe that breaking the suspension of disbelief alone is enough to warrent a Sue label. You're telling me that nothing else matters when deciding if a characeter is a Sue or not?

Regardless, I think this is one of those "agree to disagree" situations. The term "Mary Sue" is broad and varies with each person, and everyone has a different criteria. I believe she's a Sue, you don't, and I don't think we're going to change each other's mind anytime soon. For what it's worth, I found this debate entertaining and wouldn't mind continuing, but I have a feeling we'll just be going around in circles. Bye <3

Breaking suspension of disbelief is not enough to warrant a Sue label but if you never broke suspension of disbelief you can safely state that your character is not a Sue.

I find that incredibly hard to believe, but to each her own <3

But the definition of a Sue is linked to breaking suspension of disbelief. You ¿re free to not like a character, but calling him or her "Mary Sue" when they never broke suspension of disbelief is unfair.

>You're

Fixed my typo.

I do agree with you that Nia has never broken any rules within the logic of the show, but I find that her other traits that I mentioned before are enough to compensate for this.

Once again, the term "Mary Sue" has become so skewed that everyone has a different version. Just because my defnition doesn't match with yours doesn't mean it won't match with someone else's.

But the rest of the traits you think that make her Sue-ish are not heavy enough even if I disagree with the fact that a character that breaks no rules of logic within a story could even be called a Mary Sue. You may dislike a character, even if think not liking her or any of the lead characters would kill half of your enjoyment of the show, but calling her a Mary Sue is still unfair. 80% of characters in fiction have tragic backstories. Princesses are a common archetype in fantasy stories. She EARNED the love everyone gave her with her trust, why would even Yoko hate her when she trusted her that much?

>You may dislike a character, even I if think not liking her or any of the lead characters would kill half of your enjoyment of the show, but calling her a Mary Sue is still unfair.

Fixed my typo on the second sentence.

I've believe I stressed this many times before, but it was the combination of traits that lead me to believe she is a Sue. Her purity, princess/Anti-Spiral heritage, appearance, and interactions with cast members TOGETHER form what is, IMO, a Sue. Sure, princesses are common archtypes, and many fictional characters have tragic backstories, but all these traits COMBINED form Nia. And I do like the majority of the cast members, and generally think Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a pretty good show (if overhyped).

And don't worry about the typos, I make plenty of those myself ;)

I don't think those make her a Sue, they hold no weight in the large scheme of things. Still if you enjoy calling every character you dislike a Sue... feel free to do so even if consider it completely unfair.

When did I ever say I would call every character I dislike a Sue XD Seriously, you shouldn't put words into other people's mouths. I wouldn't call, say, Hinata and Shikamaru from Naruto sues/stus just because I dislike them. I only call character's sues if I believe they are deserving of the label, which I think Nia is. You may not agree with the label, but you opinion certainly isn't the only one. Like I said before, we're not going to change the other's mind anytime soon and I'm fine with that. I'm entitled to believe she is a Sue as much as you're entitled to believe she is not one.

The way you're FORCING Nia into being a Sue makes me think you would call any character not of your taste a Sue.

A little testy, aren't we? XD I'm not "forcing" anyone into anything. I'm saying she's a Sue and giving you reasons why. There's no need to get your panties in a bunch because we have different opinions. Believe it or not, not everyone agrees about everything on the Internet! A real shocker, I know.

The quality of something is subjective, I agree. You can like or dislike something. Mary Sue is nevertheless an adjective similar to "yellow" or "orange", no matter how much you want something yellow to be orange it will be objectively yellow since that's something inherent to the definition of the word itself.

Ther term "Mary Sue" is not similar to a color, because it does not have one constant definition. Unless someone's colorblind or something of that nature, a color will always be the same for every person. The definition of Mary Sue, on the other hand, easily changes.

If the term Mary Sue easily changes then it has no meaning whatsoever, why do you keep using it if it means nothing? A word that has no defined meaning is not a useful word. It's like if I invented a terminology right now and in three years the terminology meant a completely different thing... was there any point in creating said terminology in the first place?

Okay, now this is just becoming ridiculous. I'm clearly referring to how the term Mary Sue is used in present day on the Internet. When I said it easily changes, I mean it obviously has no one, true definition like the colors in your analogy and it's definition can change over time. The term Mary Sue primarily gained popularity on the Internet, and the Internet is hardly a consistent place. Various internet memes we have now will likely fade into obscurity, much like the term will 50 years from now. But we are here in the present, and must focus on soley the present definition.

And as for your hypothetical situation, the word will most likely change because people and their opinions will change. The term Mary Sue is very subjective, hence our differing opinions.

a) What I meant is that if the word means different thing for different people, then it isn't a useful word. The word "good" means the same for everyone, doesn't it? What does "Mary Sue" means? If we can't agree then it isn't a useful term.

b) The present definition of Mary Sue does not fit Nia. She is not a perfect character. Being physically beautiful is a given in anime. Her skills and traits are believable. And, most importantly, nothing about her breaks suspension of disbelief. Where do the Mary Sue idea fits in?

[ SECRET POST #477 ]

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