fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3650 ]

[ SECRET POST #3650 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3650 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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I would never say this to their face, but I'm super disappointed and angry at my progressive friends who voted for third party candidates and are now complaining about Trump. Really? Sorry, but you are part of the reason why he won. You don't get to complain now. I think you all knew that Hillary was the lesser evil but you refused to vote for her anyway. Now the most vulnerable in society are going to have to deal with the consequences.

They're probably not "part of the reason Trump won" in any real sense, though - and not in any way whatsoever unless you're in one of the handful of tipping point states. I wouldn't have made, and didn't make, the choice that they made, but Trump would have won regardless of the people who voted for Stein.

I'm willing to be 99.9% of them literally are not the reason Trump won, though.

Hillary won the popular vote. The popular vote doesn't matter.

If your friends are in swing states then there's a chance they mattered, but blaming everyone else is factually wrong.

Okay, but I still don't think Stein voters have any grounds for complaining about Trump's victory. Even if they did not directly contribute, they knew how bad Trump was and did not vote for the only person who had a chance of beating him.

Their vote had no practical impact whatsoever

I'm having a hard time understanding this.

What does it matter if they knew their vote literally did not matter? What good would adding +1 to a state voting 1 million in favor of Hillary have done in the general election? Nothing.

It seems like you're angry that they didn't vote symbolically in agreement with you, and more angry that they disagreed with you than the total non-damage they caused.

Like, you can be angry that they didn't get on the bandwagon and vote for Hillary without making untrue accusations that they're to blame for Trump.

The first part is understandable, but the claim that they helped Trump win is just. not true.

I don't blame you. Your friends had their chance, and if they didn't realize that voting third party was enabling Trump, then they weren't very aware or smart.

How'd it enable Trump?

I have a lot to do, but feel free to google swing states, how the election works, electoral college, etc.

I'm familiar with the way that the system works. I don't think that people voting for Stein cost Clinton any state, let alone any swing state. And I fail to see any other way in which Stein voters enabled Trump.

Johnson voters might have enabled Trump, but those people aren't progressives nor would I expect them to ever vote for Clinton, so I don't think that's who we're talking about here.

Nah, I can't blame them. Trump didn't win this election, Hilary lost it.

And the most vulnerable in society were always going to be the ones to have to deal with the consequences and those consequences were never going to be any better whether you voted Hilary or Trump.

It was going to be the same people getting fucked over and to the same degree. Only difference is now that Trump is in, these people are expecting to get fucked, where as Hilary was going to blindside them.

That's stupid as fucking shit. The actual behavior of the government will be significantly different under Trump than it was under Clinton. It is going to have different effects on people than it would have otherwise. Fuck outta here with this "both sides are the same" bullshit. Do you think, for instance, that Clinton would now be contemplating block-granting Medi-care or repealing the ACA?

It simply disagree. Politicians look out fo themselves. Trump would never fuck over a demographic he needs on his side, and Hilary would never go out on a limb to protect a demographic she doesn't need on her side. On both of those cases that demographic is those vulnerable people.

Maybe she would and maybe she wouldn't. I doubt she'd do it right off the bat, but as soon as she needed some republican support, boom, it's gone. Trump already had that republican support, so he had to hit that first, but yes, controversial bit of legislation, that is newish and vulnerable? That right there is prime sacrafice material.

Again, this is stupid shit. Hillary would have compromised on shit but - even supposing a maximum of personal cynicism, ruthlessness, and machiavellianism - she was not going to sell the core basic policy positions of the Democratic Party down the river. You fucking morons. There is a difference between compromise and throwing over everything that your allies believe in and making them hate you. Even given her commitment to compromise, Hillary is not going to swing right over to carrying out the dream of the right-wing Republicans. That is what Trump is contemplating even now. You fucking child.

Again: there are real, discrete differences in policy we're talking about here, and this kind of analysis is totally unfounded and stupid and harmful as hell.

Why not, the rest of the democratic party sold the core basic policy positions down the river when they openly fucked Bernie.

People are people everywhere is not just a saying to encapsulate the good parts of human nature. Selfish fuckers doing whatever they can to succeed will succeed and get to the top on all sides. Occasionally you'll get a good one like Obama, but everything I've seen of her does not make me believe this. Trump and Hilary are two successful people of equally shitty character, so Trump was never going to fuck people as hard as the hysteria suggested, and hillary was never going to be the saint of progressive values people were pushing her as. Bring them both down to Human - Not Demon not saint - and everything I've seen marks them just as bad as each other.

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2016-12-31 23:34 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

thewakokid - 2016-12-31 23:42 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2016-12-31 23:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

tabaqui - 2017-01-01 02:30 (UTC) - Expand

You're saying there's no difference between Hillary giving Republicans 10% of what they want, and Trump giving them 100%?

No, because trump won't give them 100%. He'll give them 100% of what he want's to give them or has to give them. And Hilary won't give them 10%. She would give them what she needs to and what she want's to.

I'd probably say (since we're pulling stats out of our ass for this hypothetical.) Trump will give them 55%, Hilary would give them 45%, and of that 10% difference, who's to say that half of that won't turn out to be of benefit?. The republicans getting 10% more with trump might actually be the good 10%?

I disagree with the last thing.

Half the people believe Trump is going to help them and Hillary was going to fuck them.

The other half believed Hillary was going to help them and Trump was going to fuck them.

It's just flipped sides who's going to be surprised, is all. Same people getting fucked.

Oh, I agree, but what I mean was those vulnerable people who are going to get fucked under Trump and were going to get fucked under Hilary? They might have has some hope that Hilary wasn't going to fuck them. And they'd have been wrong.

People who thought Trump was their Guy are SOL.
People who NEED Trump to not fuck them are SOL, but they knew that.
People who thought Hilary would have been their Girl are SOL.
People who NEED Hilary to not fuck them would have been SOL, but they might have had some false hope on that thanks to the "Chillary Clinton" bollocks that was being spread. Hilary protecting Trans people, Immigrants or Refugees was about as lofty a promise as Bernie making anime real.

Hilary protecting Trans people, Immigrants or Refugees was about as lofty a promise as Bernie making anime real.

Hillary would have been markedly better for all of those people than Trump

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

thewakokid - 2016-12-31 23:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2016-12-31 23:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

thewakokid - 2016-12-31 23:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2016-12-31 23:49 (UTC) - Expand

A lesser evil is still an evil though. And voting for one is like paying the Danegeld, it guarantees you'll never get a candidate that aims any higher than lesser evil. Plus there was 100% zero chance of Hillary walking on stage after the election as President Elect and saying "Look, I know you only voted me with your noses held so I won't take this as mandate to introduce more corporatism or fighting in the Middle East". She would hve gone out there and claimed full endorsement, not as a Lesser of Two Evils, but for economic and taxation policies she knew was unwanted.

It sucks at the time, but eventually an electorate has to put its foot down and demand something other than a lesser of two evils candidate. I know people claim that this was the wrong time, but it was always going to be the wrong time because it was always going to be facing the greater of two evils. Sometimes you just have to suffer the evil to remind yourself why you need the good.

this is stupid as fuck

It is cynical, but not wrong.

And voting for one is like paying the Danegeld, it guarantees you'll never get a candidate that aims any higher than lesser evil.

this, in particular, I think is just wrong - other, more gradual mechanisms of change exist, and I would argue are more effective

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-01 00:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 2016 confessions & unpopular opinions

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-01 04:06 (UTC) - Expand

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