fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3702 ]

[ SECRET POST #3702 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3702 ⌋

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He does hate the Jews a bit, though.

He's been keeping that under wraps for the last few years, and working with Jewish charities, so maybe he doesn't anymore.

I was going to say "Nah, you don't just stop hating people" but to be honest that's pretty damned cynical of me.

My gut is telling me that he saw the hit his openly hateful shit copped him, and he's keeping it on the DL.

BUt you know, maybe. Maybe he never actually hated them and was just going through some shit, and maybe, yeah, he feels bad and has turned shit around. Both are totally possible.

I am a little skeptical myself, I gotta admit.

It's a case where I'm pretty loath to cut him slack because it feels like it's something that's not entirely that far from the rest of his political views.

Not to say that all Catholics, or even all hard-line conservative Catholics, are anti-Semitic, but it is a bit of a recurrent issue in that general segment of the population. It makes me a bit more suspicious.

I see what you're saying, but to my view of things you might be focusing in a bit too tight on the Catholic / Antisemitism.

I can't think of a single religion - Maybe buddhism, maybe - that doesn't have some real issues with every other religion.

I don't think the Catholics have any harder a line on Judaism than Jews have on Islam, than Muslims have one Hinduism, and soon and so forth.

I should have worded that better, I think. It's not just that Gibson is Catholic - I was actually raised Catholic and would consider myself culturally Catholic in some sense. and obviously as you say no religion is free from some prejudice or violence, being as they are human institutions. It's that he's specifically a very hardline conservative kind of Catholic, and that kind of Catholicism in particular has some overlap with anti-Semitism, especially when you take it as a political ideology as Gibson seems to. And even then, I wouldn't say that it necessarily means that someone is anti-Semitic. But it does mean that, if someone with those views actually goes and says anti-Semitic things, I'm very unlikely to write it off as a mistake or some random drunken mischance or something.

(also - and it's not at all relevant to the point - but Buddhism has definitely been associated with political violence; see the Sri Lankan civil war)

This is all true, and in fact - let me be real clear on this one - I am in NO WAY defending Mel Gibson. Good movies do not make up for bad shit, it's why I have never seen Chinatown.

But, - and I'm purely playing devils advocate on this one - there is one other possible element to consider: upbringing. Man isn't just a hardline catholic, he was raised a hard line catholic. The shit those motherfuckers -Heavy religious people, not catholics - put into you when you're a kid, that shit stays with you. You can try and flush it out by knowing it's wrong, you can try and un fuck yourself, but then you get old, your life turns to shit around you, you get a drinking problem... I'm just saying, it's not necessarily him that coming out there.

I don't know if I believe that, but you know, could be.

Yeah, his Jew-hatred can be traced right back to his father Hutton Peter Gibson.

Oh, wow, that first paragraph on Wikipedia.

I had no idea, but yeah, that'd do it.

I guess you just have to ask how far that goes. Obviously it's tremendously difficult to tease out all of these factors but I think for a 50-year-old millionaire I just don't know how far it goes.

The "Jews on Islam" is actually a bad example in this case, because Judaism as a religion theologically speaking doesn't have many issues with Islam at all... though Judaism also isn't missionary, which makes everything a bit more chill.
(not getting into politics, here; politics are a different story)

And like anon said, there's been plenty of violence in Buddhism. See, for example, Buddhist sects in early Japan murdering each other. There's a reason "warrior monk" is a stereotype that exists.

That Buddhism stuff is totally news to me, I have to say. We don't have much of a Buddhist presence around these parts, so all I know about them is how chill they are in the movies.

And I suppose it is the political side of things I'm seeing more with the Jewish folks not being in love with the Muslim folks.

Edited 2017-02-22 00:32 (UTC)

Yeah, but there I think you need to separate the religion from the politics, imo. There's issues with border contention and land ownership going on there, and other religious issues that became points of contention. But that's different from, for example, the Catholics spending many years on the "Jews killed Jesus" platform and having that be a major theological point for a thousand+ years.
So I think when talking about religions having issues with each other, it's important to consider the roots of these issues, and the in-religion mandated method of dealing with the issues, and how things have been solved historically.

Either way, I do think that historically Catholics *have* had a much harder line on Jews than Jews ever had specifically on Muslims. But then you also get into power relations and blah blah blah it's all messy.

I'm really skeptical of whether you can ever divorce religion from politics - or to speak more generally, whether there's any sense to talking about religion as something that exists separate from specific human contexts, contexts in which it is complexly tied to politics and a million other things. I just don't know how useful it is to talk about any religion in a strictly theological sense.

Of course, that's probably a very unreligious way of looking at the world.

Do you also believe you can't divorce philosophy from politics?

Ha! Deep and dangerous waters here!

Provisionally, yes, it seems likely to me.

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ketita - 2017-02-22 00:44 (UTC) - Expand

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ketita - 2017-02-22 00:58 (UTC) - Expand

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ketita - 2017-02-22 01:12 (UTC) - Expand

It's because they all still believe the Jews killed their Jesus.

(It was the Romans, not the Jews.)

The Catholic Church specifically disagrees with that idea, so if they're Roman Catholics in communion with the Church, they shouldn't believe that.

Sedevacantists and other traditionalist Catholics might believe it, and I'm sure some Roman Catholics do, but Roman Catholicism does not endorse, promote, or agree with that view.

Well, now, the Jews didn't come out looking like heroes from that one.

I will say, given that Jesus was a jew, I do struggle to understand the scoring on that. Like how we british still seem to hate the germans, but then we never look too closely to our own royal family.

Plus, I mean, the jews never killed any christians, they killed a Jew, like, he was one of their own guys. That's an own goal, surely. Plus he knew it was coming and knew it was necessary, so really, it's more like he Killed himself when you think about it. And when you think of all the miracles the guy did as part of the jewish faith, Those were Jewish miracles.

early christianity was considered to be a type of judiaism. you had to be jewish either by birth or conversion to follow jesus. after the conversion of paul (saul), paul started to preach to non-jews and said that you didn't have to be jewish to follow jesus. that's when jewish-christianity (aka followers of jesus the christ) slowly changed and pulled away from judiasm and became a separate religion. these followers of this new religion -- christianity -- tried to completewly separate themselves from their jewish roots and justified the fact that jesus was jewish by saying that jews rejected jesus as "the true god" so jesus wasn't "really" jewish anymore in christian eyes.

New Testament says Herod Agrippa killed at least one of the Apostles...

I do have to wonder though if it HAD been the Jews why that would even matter when the subject should be Jesus himself, a Jew. It baffles me how that part--the only relevant subject--gets so ignored.

Early christianity, etc, etc, etc

Yeah, see... "keeping that under wraps" implies there's something to hide or hold back. People who don't have a paranoid hateboner for Jewish people and who don't believe they're at the heart of a powerful conspiracy controlling the world don't have anything to "keep under wraps". As for working with Jewish charities, my guess is that's a belated attempt at PR.

Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, I wont be inviting him to any of my family reunions or anything, but that man can direct.

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