Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-05-18 05:05 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-05-18 05:05 pm
[ SECRET POST #499 ]
⌈ Secret Post #499 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 18 pages, 445 secrets from Secret Submission Post #072.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
Bokurano definitely falls into that trap of course, but I never complimented it on it's plot. Mohiro Kitoh's work is never excellent in plot development, but his characters are rather special and the points of views he illustrates are rather unique... in the fact that they are so essentially human (and I think a lot of things discard this essense, down from the simplistic character design where I can sense people are people and not characters). Then again, I do have a higher appreciation for Narutaru than Bokurano.
But you're saying exactly what I was saying. I did not say Reborn was a failure entirely, I just feel it is completely character driven in what makes it more appealing versus something else. Also there is what I like to call the level of interest argument which is, someone is usually more capable of reaching out to fanworks of series that were decent. More mediocre series allow one to extend beyond it into fanworks (or fan-originated fiction specifically) because the series lays only groundwork for a far more interesting development to be laid on top of it. For series that are satisfying on their own basis, they become able to stand on their own and do not need that extension. Of course, this is a personal level of interest so I'm sure it is different for everyone. It is not my intention to being some elitist of sorts. I admit that that little snide remark that came out was a bit rash and I didn't even realize I commented with it...
Also I wouldn't say that at ALL(regarding the originality + execution argument). I can look at something as well and feel it's unoriginal (ie: look at say... House) and for the most part I dislike the show greatly, apart from the snippets of dialog which are really well executed. Would I call it a show with a good plot? Not at all. And when it tries to have a plot if anything it comes off as pretentious. Will I still watch it? Yes because I enjoy the conversational aspect. Reborn similarly, do I regularly enjoy tried and true themes of friendship and do I find the character relationships really intriguing if further aggrandized through social commentary? Yes. Do I think that the series would be much better off without the weak female cast, round fights with horridly simplified villains, typical plot usages, etc? Quite.
Also I am most certainly not going to bash someone(their character) for liking something I do not like or vice versa... what I will judge is based on what they do with their like of it (I hate to say since even that is rather petty)....but essentially what needs it feeds. I mean if I did that, I probably wouldn't have the friends I do. After all most of my friends dislike what I like, and almost vice versa.
(Also Groundhog day was original? W...what? I never watched the full movie but I can't see it as the original type XD)
On that last point, a rather quick question, how do you exactly know what they would do? The characters evolve and apart from Gokudera, Tsuna and maybe Mukuro... other motivations are left undiscussed. There are still gapping holes of inconsistency is that can be easily described because Amano choses to leave the reader in the dark. That might be what Tsuna and co would do, but how exactly would you know unless you had a full grasp of their rounded personas.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
I think it has a better female cast than most shounen. Lal and Chrome fight, and Bianchi is still an active hitwoman. Adult I-pin can hold her own as well (she was shown fighting alongside Adult Lambo before she got bazooka'ed in the past). But you're forgetting, it's shounen and it's not surprising that something aimed for boys who have a male-dominated cast. The only dead weight in the female cast is Kyoko since she never truly stood like all the other female characters so far. Kyoko's constant stagnation is prolly done on purpose as Tsuna's one link to normalcy but she's boring. I'll give you that.
And I liked the villains. Mukuro was crafty when he wanted to be, one of the few trickster characters done right. Xanxus was an asshole just because. Byakuran is still largely undecided but I seriously doubt he's the main villain for this arc but I like the glimpse of his personality. Shouichi, most likely the Future Arc main baddie, is still a mystery as well, but I like how he can switch from reluctant to confident at times. I like villains with personality really.
As for Narutaru, I thought it relied too much on a shock factor towards the end to be an effective story. Bokurano isn't as plot detailed (but it does have a plot in the background), but as you say it pretty character-driven and it feels that it was his better title because of the memorable characters IMO.
(Groundhog Day was considered an original movie because it was the first of its kind to use a time loop as an effective plot device and development for Bill Murray's character, it doesn't seem original now since many series and TV shows use the trope, but it was back when it premiered.)
Even if we don't know their motivations (even though we know Yamamoto's motivation is to protect his friends and Hibari's constant search for a good fight and protect Namimori), we usually get a real good glimpse of this character, which most of the main and side characters had gets shown in the Daily Life Arc.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
But Lal, Chrome, Bianchi and Haru are ALL controlled by men. Whether it is through love, or through a submissive persona they all have that identifiable trait. To an extent, even I-Pin as well (but really not to that noticeable degree TYL). I mean Lal is plagued by the Tsundere archetype which is a shame because for a while I did like her character. Bianchi and Haru are both similar in they give a strong appearance until you see how they ask to be so submissive. And of course as we all know with Chrome, she is a slave to Mukuro's powers, and even though she had some of his capabilities, he still controls her. At least Kyoko is strengthened through her friendships rather than her being in love with someone, although it'd be cooler if she was the one protecting Ryohei. I mean I know being in love with someone isn't a bad thing, but it is the whole essence of reciprocated emotion that is very tired out. This problem of course is emulated through. Time and time again, brotherhood is shown as a strength where relationships are revealed as a weakness. Also of course the girls have been shown to be far weaker than any of the males. Whatever, women are always shown as weaker and more submissive in most things anyway.
I don't like villains because they ARE villains. Their motivations are overdone and played out. Xanxus had the powertrip, Mukuro relies on revenge, etc. Shuichi is probably the most interesting villian presented thusfar and he's partially why I'm still continuing (to see where his motivations developed) Really, I like villians that aren't really villains.
For Narutaru I presume you are referring to the manga? Personally I hope so because the anime was disgustingly weak. The shock factor for me wasn't that shocking, and if you read other of Kitoh's earlier work since he was a goro artist for some time. And yes, while a lot of it was just overly graphic and a bit unnecessary, I liked how Sheena morphed as well as I actually happened to be a fan of a lot of the characters. What I loved about it was it's underlying message.
(How do you like that haha. And thats something that seems like it's been there for long time. Tres cool.)
Well but we still know little about their pasts. Yes Yamamoto protects his friends but there are underlying features that be considered questionable to that extent (for some time I would consider Yamamoto a very evil character), after all where did that athletic streak come, how did he turn so quickly to suicide and what exactly draws him to Tsuna versus others. Fan-driven theories dive more into this than Amano does is all I'm really saying, but maybe given time she will. As for Hibari, we don't know that to be his only motivation... why was he seeking the desire for strength, what developed this innate sense? What makes Namimori so sacred to him as well as his care for the little Hibird. What his is actual relationship with Kusakabe and why does Kusakabe himself feel the need to watch over Hibari for all these years? A lot of these I'm far more curious about than the progression of the fights. The only reason the fights don't bother me is precisely because I skip over them because to me its just a bunch of power-ups and exposing techniques against a 'baddie'
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
Why I have a feeling if the girls are men, you wouldn't say the comment? Yes, Lal wants to take revenge against Millefiore for Colonnello's death, but she have priorities as well and she's very self-sufficient, especially for a person who's on the verge of dying from Millefiore's beams. Her battle with Ginger Bread pretty much show that she can pull her weight. But honestly, how come she's different from Ryohei, who wants revenge for his master just as bad?
Chrome pretty much shown that she can fight without Mukuro controlling her with her fight with Glo Xinia and now doesn't need Mukuro to support her organs anymore. Yeah, Mukuro helped distract Glo Xinia from killing Chrome, that's no different when the guys help out each other, but it was Chrome's desire to see the Kokuyou Gang again that awoken her latent illusionist powers against an enemy that TYL!Mukuro had a hard time fighting even.
Bianchi's shown to be pretty self-sufficient back in the Kokuyou Arc and helping out Gokudera in his training in the Future Arc. I think the fact that she's horrible in the kitchen is a send up to the trope of women being great at cooking. Yeah, she's extremely devoted to Reborn, but does that make her any different than her own lil' bro, who is extremely loyal to Tsuna? There's nothing wrong with her being in love with Reborn as long as she could pull her own weight, she IS a hitwoman after all.
Remember, Tsuna and his family are often touted as different than other mafia families. The mafia in a sense is evil in itself, so Tsuna's opponents wanting to off him (or in Mukuro's case, be him) for power make sense in that his adversaries are after the same thing. Hell, this is one component that I'm happy that Amano kept in from the true life of the mafia. Even upright families like the Cavallone Familgia is not above getting their hands dirty even with a boss like Dino. But at least the villains were colorful to say the least.
I meant the Narutaru manga too. I mean, is a scene with grade school girls molesting another one with a test tube, necessary? I mean, Bokurano had its shock moments but it doesn't go extreme as Narutaru did.
(That's why is a culturally significant movie too! But that happens all the time when you see a film and don't think of it as special when later works copy the hell out of the trope.)
I agree that Yamamoto is troubled, but I feel as Gokudera struggles with trust, Yamamoto struggles with self-worth. The fact he was willing to kill himself because he MIGHT never play ball again, tells you he doesn't hold himself in high regard at all. I think it would be interesting of why he chose the mafia instead something pursuing his dream again. Also, I'm very curious of his father, Tsuyoshi's past and why it seems like Yamamoto's mother isn't around (some predict she died, but it's odd she never shown up once). As for Hibari, I think fighting Reborn was pretty much he join the Vongola and he like the power it brings (and that he might grown tsundere towards the Guardians). But I like the wild theory that he's some guardian spirit of the town. LOL. But I wouldn't be surprised if he came from a yakuza family or very traditional home. I hope Amano does some backstory on Hibari soon, either in novel form or the manga.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
Would I not complain if the females were men? Err... I don't like male characters to be that... frankly... they'd be far too whimpy for my taste. Chrome hasn't fought since the end of her battles (which was still before Mukuro's supposed death) and Mukuro is still a far superior fighter. She is still very shy and passive to an extraordinary degree. I feel that I don't need the women to be manly women but I'd like to see something more than what we are presented with than usually.
Bianchi reminds me of the stereotyped European woman who is very sexualized and domineering. Her cooking capabilities steamed as a talent. Its only harmful and bad because its poisonous but I believe she is fully aware of that. Also MM was a VERY indispensable character compared to the two Yamamoto and Gokudera fought. Plus the marriage fiasco if anything completely nullifies anything that could express her as strong. How easily she is duped due to her ill-faith in Reborn is ridiculous. Yes it's comical, but it does send a message.
Lal has the underlying tsundere factor which I bring up again because it is known as a trait to undermine a girl who seems tough (tough on the outside but soft on the inside is a very dominated trait. I'm not saying its a bad thing, I'm just saying that the way it is formated in said culture it is very much a negative). Ryohei has no abounding tsundere factor whatsoever so that can't be qualified for a comparison. The only person who could have potentially expressed it is Hibari but I'd probably be very disappointed in his character if that was the kind he turned out to be (of course the future arc clearly says otherwise). A good example of a solid Lal to me is a Lady Kika type. Same exact situation with a loved one dying, both came out as strong women, but Kika prevails through a calm strength which I like. She's actually more like a warm-hearted Hibari. (In terms of that after losing everything, she built up a pirate crew with an iron fist)
Yes I do agree with the fact that Gokudera's emotions could be essentially compared to the male equivalent of Haru. The only thing that makes his actions for me logical is because of the loss of his family, I see Gokudera's relationship with Tsuna to be a bit of a father-son one. Due to the lack of a good father, Tsuna became the pinnacle of Gokudera's affection. In this essence he was given logic behind his actions and therefore made his growth as a character seem to take a unique form. I do applaud Amano on how rounded Gokudera has become as a character, while when it comes to the others I can't always say the same.
I love characters with weaknesses, I just wish most of them weren't prevalent stereotypes... or things that society still deals with as a problem. It is prominent as a problem through many video games and television, comics, etc so I'm not going to say reborn is the worst, because it clearly isn't, but it isn't the best. The only thing that has shown a prominent step forward in gaming at least is Suikoden(I mean not all their characters, but a pretty strong number). So what can I say, I guess I'm looking for some female characters that are on equal terms with some of the ones in the games.
I'm also not a big fan of this whole mythical mafia. Everyone in the mafia reminds me of everyone in Code Geass in the government. For the most part people aren't like in both appearance and nature. It is far too characterized for my taste.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
I disagree strongly that Chrome is shy or passive. Quiet and a bit standoffish? Yes. Shy? No. Remember, this is a person who walked up to a prefect stranger who she only have secondary information from a former enemy and kissed him on the cheek and ask if she can call him "Boss" within minutes of meeting him. And she said did this on her own will. In Japan, that's a pretty brazen thing to do. I don't know where you get passive from, but she agreed to let Mukuro possess her because it was a mutual beneficial thing: Mukuro needed an able body, Chrome needed Mukuro's illusions to keep her alive. Besides, if you reread the Glo/Chrome fight, those illusions were Chrome's because Mukuro coached her to tap into her latent illusionist powers (remember, he's using Leo's body at the moment and I think that he can't use his offensive illusion powers unless he's in an able body, but not remotely). Unless you're talking about how Ken and Chigusa treat her, she probably let him treat her that way because they're still upset about Mukuro, not because she was afraid of them or anything. Chrome doesn't act like a typical Japanese girl, she was an odd one and that's why her parents rejected her. Even the mangaka makes a point in the fanbook on how much inner strength that Chrome has.
I don't know, yeah Bianchi has the pushiness stereotyped of Western women, but she's also a typical young woman in certain behaviors. I don't thing the weeding thing invalidated her character as it's natural to want to marry that person you love. Plus I don't think you take in account how she continues to do her own thing for the Vongola Familgia AFTER Reborn's death. I don't think her love for Reborn is entirely blind as more that's why she loves Reborn.
And I disagree that Lal is a tsundere character, Gokudera and maybe Hibari are tsundere characters, not Lal. It's understandable why she was hard on Tsuna and Gokudera because they don't need to be coddled in such a situation they're in, not to protect herself emotionally (which tsunderes do). And note that this isn't her first time training since she trained Colonnello back in that special army unit before they became Arcobaleno, so her toughness on them prolly came from that. Plus, she doubted in Tsuna's current potential because she didn't know him very well. It was until Tsuna passed the Vongola Don test, she seen it. She seems to be more like a milder female version of Reborn than anything. A strong woman might not be a common trait in modern shounen, but it's not like strong women don't exist in shounen. And again, I can't help to think that because she's a woman that you called her a tsundere. And if you're going to use her relationship to Colonnello, I think she felt guilt that he became an Arcobalenco and disappointment that she was a failed one. But I also think she only saw him as a student until after that fact.
And I also strongly disagree that Gokudera sees Tsuna as a father figure, he already has Shamal and the Ninth for that (and the fact he shares Shamal's hairstyle denotes his influence in Gokudera's life). To Gokudera, Tsuna is everything to him and the first and only person he let past all the emotional barriers he had. So, of course he wants approval from Tsuna and do right by him. And now, he tries to figure out to treat Tsuna like a friend and less of a revered boss and trust others so his attention won't be a burden to Tsuna. I agree that Gokudera is the most complex character in the series, but I don't think most of the major cast is one-note characters, they do show other sides of their personalities time to time. While I don't think Reborn has the best characters ever, but it's best characterization of SJ during its run except for Eyeshield 21, Death Note and one equal footing with One Piece.
Meh, I like the Magical Mystery Mafia thing, I came in Reborn for the strange twists that manga in general provide and they're fulfilling that for me.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
This essentially will break down to the fact that we both see differently and there are so many words to express fully our points of view. Nothing you have said really has made me change my state of mine and I'm sure vice versa as you seem as equally stubborn in your position as I. I thank you for your perspective and admire your passion about the series to be so adamantly defensive.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
I admit I like debating more than anything and come from a family who like to debate a lot. It was a pleasure.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
Also you're losing the point that they're characters which represent a social norm. If the prevailing social norm is constructed in said media it tends to permeate through society through a social impact. Therefore when females are already seen, particularly in a society such as Japan, as weak and incapable and something illustrates that, it becomes a larger problem. But I don't ask for unrealistic characters I just ask for maybe a female character I could relate to in any possible way.
There... I go again. =X
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
I think Chrome's defensive stature is more to protect the trident, which is important for her not to let go and that it's huge for her small size so she looks like that. How she interacts with Ken, Chigusa and Tsuna doesn't show she's always uncertain, although I admit she looked a little worried that Tsuna wouldn't accept her as the Mist Guardian. To be honest, Chrome's loyalty to Mukuro is the same as Gokudera's loyalty to Tsuna. During her backstory in the Mist Guardian battle, she had resigned herself to die because there was nothing there for her to live for. Then suddenly Mukuro appears and told her they were the same and that he needed her was prolly a first for Chrome, who seemed to be a loner until that point. Like Gokudera to Tsuna, Chrome wants to pay back Mukuro for the new lease on life so she addresses him respectfully like Chigusa does. She is no different from Ken and Chigusa in that regard with Mukuro. Yes, she's submissive to him, but not cause he's a guy and she's a girl, she's submissive to him because the guy was a savior to her, just like to Ken and Chigusa and they would all die for Mukuro. And she's not submissive to Ken or Chigusa either since she address them by their first names, IIRC. She knows that how they feel about her so she keeps her distance (as shown in the Cloud Guardian battle when they were sitting on the hill).
I'm very well aware of the sexiest against girls in manga, in Japan, and pretty much every other medium around the world, but I don't think very instance that a girl is submissive (although it's more appropriate to to say subordinate) to a guy is necessarily so because of their sex. Or a tough chick who shows her emotions on her sleeves is a tsundere. That's all.
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44
I'm basing Hibari's actions on the kind of person Hibari is. Hibari is a person in search for worthy opponents and power if his control of Namimori says anything. What better place is in the Mafia? I said I wouldn't be surprised if Hibari actually came from an influential family since it seems that no one stops him from doing what he wants ever, although it would be a neat twist if he came from a normal home. LOL.