fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3790 ]

[ SECRET POST #3790 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3790 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 45 secrets from Secret Submission Post #543.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I guess I'm in the minority here but I really don't think they/them is that confusing?

I think you're missing the point of the secret, which isn't to say that they/them is inherently confusing, just that there are instances (such as a large group of people in one scene) where it can get confusing because if the writer isn't careful, it's hard to tell the difference between someone using they/them to refer to a nonbinary character or using they/them to refer to 2+ people in the group.

But OP does think this problem is significant enough that people shouldn't use they/them pronouns at all, so even if it's not inherently confusing, it's a major issue to OP.

I don't believe I said it wasn't a major issue? The reason why OP gives for wishing people wouldn't use they/them is because they're so often written badly, not because the terms are always or inherently confusing in and of themselves. OP makes it clear that there are contexts where they/them works.

OP does say there are contexts where using "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun works. But they also encourage abandoning "they" all together - they want people not to use "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun, and they want people to consider other possible gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a wish for greater clarity in writing. This is not OP asking for people to be careful. This is OP asking people not to use "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun at all. Even if OP doesn't regard "they" as intrinsically confusing, OP still wants to abandon "they" entirely.

I'm not sure but I think you might be confusing my dislike of they/them as a prejudice against nonbinary people in general. Terminology is often changing among groups. For example, we didn't always use the term POC, but it's become more popular because it works better and is more empowering than "minorities".

??? How did you even get that from that comment at all?

I'm not saying that your opinion is prejudiced, I get that you're just talking about the terms. And I do agree that we can talk about which terms are better or worse and obviously there are arguments on both sides.

With that being said, I guess that one of the reasons that I'm being so emphatic about my position is because the sense that I get from NB people is that in general they do strongly prefer using "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun compared to any of the other alternatives, and I think that counts for a lot.

OP

It's true, it's very common, but how many of them are writers? Pronouns aren't used with the same frequency in daily life as they are in a novel. I can see a new gender neutral pronoun set going over better with editors and publishers than they/them as nonbinary identifying people become more common in literature.

NAYRT: Yo, I'm non-binary and a writer, a bunch of my characters use they pronouns or otherwise. And yes, sometimes it can be tricky establishing they in writing so that it's clear, but in my experience it's not that much difference than differentiating which 'he' is doing something in a scene. And honestly, I also feel like using 'they' so that non binary people like me can see themselves in writing is important enough to keep the pronouns in even if it takes a little work to establish which "they" I'm talking about :0

I'm not, like, crusading against it or anything, I just think people should be encouraging use of an agreed upon gender neutral pronoun. They/them works in some situations, and utterly fails in others, but no one wants to acknowledge this because people are afraid of being seen as bigoted for thinking we could do better, linguistically. It's not like it would be THAT hard to introduce into our language, we have slang terms getting popular all the time, why not a gender neutral pronoun? They/them is terrible when writing a story with a prominent nonbinary character who frequently interacts with a group. Good writing can only help that so much.

I just think people should be encouraging use of an agreed upon gender neutral pronoun.

They are. That is what 'they' is. That is what 'they' has been for centuries.

'They' is no more confusing than 'he' or 'she'.

It isn't so confusing in most general conversation in daily life, but it is undeniably more confusing in literature where pronoun use is much heavier.

But 'he' and 'she' have the same issue, albeit in different contexts.

It's commonly called the 'gay fanfiction dilemma', although that's not the only context it crops up in (though it tends to be one of the worst, due to the kinds of interaction that come up in same-gender romance/sex, and the general quality of fanfic).

So how then do you differentiate between a group of male characters speaking? Or female characters?

It's almost as if context can help you differentiate speakers GASP.

But, I mean, this is a debate that exists. It's not like someone decided on "they" one day and then pushed out an invisible memo to force people to go along with it or be bigoted. There are reasons that people mostly decided to go with "they" instead of one of the other alternatives. One of the main reasons is that people have been actively trying to get people to adopt new invented gender-neutral pronouns since at least the 70s, and none of them have ever really taken - it turns out that it's a lot harder than you think to get people to adopt it. It's not like some kind of novel idea.

Those confusions can also happen with more than one male or more than one female character together though. That's just bad writing.

The secret definitely implied to me that it's inherently confusing. Why else try to get everyone to change?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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