[ SECRET POST #3830 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3830 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.



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02.
[Drake Bell and Josh Peck from Drake & Josh]


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03.
[Death in Paradise, Ardal O'Hanlon]


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04.
[Dreamwidth Roleplay]


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05.
[Final Fantasy X & X-2]


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06.
[Outlander]


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07.
[Animal Crossing/Legend of Zelda]


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08.
[Daredevil TV]


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09.


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10.









Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 11 secrets from Secret Submission Post #548.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

06. http://i.imgur.com/5Cjzrcb.jpg
[Outlander]

[belladonna_took]

His wife isn't from the present-day future though? In her modern world there are germs but homosexual acts are still against the law.

[(Anonymous)]

His wife is from post WWII, though I'm not sure why that makes a difference? The secret isn't talking about the legality of homosexuality.

[belladonna_took]

It's not, but OP was saying he was open-minded about time travel and germ theory. Those are both things his wife believes, has firsthand experience with, and discusses with him. His belief in them didn't just manifest out of nowhere. Would she be likely to have positive opinions of gay people to share with him too? Even if she did, would it be a subject she'd be likely to speak about? Who else would he be getting the message that gay is okay from if not her?

[(Anonymous)]

Is his perspective informed by the fact that he was raped by a man?

[(Anonymous)]

That was my thought, too, but OP didn't address that for some reason. He comes from an era where homosexuality is NOT accepted, and he also has related emotional trauma. Lord John is awesome - I love him - and yes, there are lots of times that Jamie is an absolute ass to him. But it makes sense in context of the story.

What's puzzling me, is that OP seems to want to keep that characterization (doesn't want it whitewashed), but then in the last paragraph also seems to be arguing against that characterization. So I'm actually not sure what the secret is saying...? Maybe I'm misreading it.

[kaijinscendre]

Just because someone accepts some progressive views, doesn't mean they will accept them all.

[(Anonymous)]

It's still a tiny bit sad that someone can believe in tiny invisible monsters that will make you very sick and can spread with a touch unless you sterilize instruments and wash your hands, but stumbles over "not all gay people are disgusting abominations", though.

[initiala]

I'm enjoying the books so far (only on 4), but I get the feeling that this perspective is a lot more informed by the author's preferences. Like, it feels like most of the people we're told are bad and evil also ~surprisingly~ turn out to have a sexual interest in men. Usually of the sadistic variety.

I mean, Jamie's views later are also colored significantly by the fact that he was abused, beaten, and left basically for dead by Randall, so it doesn't come without reason. Doesn't make it right, but you see where he's coming from. But it does bug me a lot that we're getting all these ~historical gays~ and there's practically zero positive representation or attitudes towards them.

[(Anonymous)]

I wondered the same thing. It's pretty clear to me that the author has a huge thing for Jamie, not unlike Stephenie Meyer's obsession with Edward. Gabaldon has been very, very vocal about being anti-fanfic (which is a funny hypocrisy in itself) and I wondered if Jamie's homophobia is her of way of trying to stop the slash pairings. Claire is her self insert and Jamie/Claire is her OTP.

Ironically, Gabaldon's Lord Grey series (featuring the character in the secret, as an adult) comes a lot closer to being a positive representation of a gay man in a historical setting.

[(Anonymous)]

She doesn't want anybody writing fanfic about her Frazer Hines/Jamie McCrimmon expy and apparently has no self-awareness about what a giant hypocrite she is, and it's FUCKING HILARIOUS.

[seashadows]

This. By the Doylist perspective, it's awful - there was absolutely no need to have Randall, Sandringham, AND John Grey all lusting after Jamie, the first two doing so when he was underage. And the only lesbian character tried to rape Claire in Book 6.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, from a Doylist perspective, that series is a mess! I don't know why, but the author is dead set on having everyone and their grandmother lust after Jamie and Claire. Like, weird insta-lust that sometimes becomes a convenient plot device.

[digitalghosts]

This is why I passed on those books as read about that before. Sure, it's fun to have evil gay characters with not so great heroes (would say that dude is half-validated by abuse plus not so paragon views are amusing to read) but it being a running theme is just weird.

[(Anonymous)]

Save for the fact the guy is an evil pervert, and a rapist, to boot. He's not exactly the banner boy for gay pride.

[(Anonymous)]

Who's an evil pervert and rapist?

[(Anonymous)]

Do... do you think it might have something to do with that time he was raped for like hours by a gay man who actually was an evil pervert? Just spitballing here.

[(Anonymous)]

... who first forced him to nail his own hand to the table as a sign of his "consent" to being sodomized?

(that's the part that really made my gorge rise)

[(Anonymous)]

I can see why that might cause Jamie to believe that all gay men are disgusting perverts. His opinion would be heavily influenced by that traumatic experience. He'd still be wrong, though.

[(Anonymous)]

FYI, the author says that character is a sexual sadist, not gay.

http://www.outlandertvnews.com/2015/04/diana-gabaldon-clarifies-black-jack-randalls-sexual-orientation/

[litalex]

Gabaldon has stated that Black Jack isn't gay and is an equal opportunity sadist.

[(Anonymous)]

People can believe in things that have zero moral aspect to them, like germ theory and (in a world where time travel exists) time travel, and still retain their own particular sets of beliefs about things which they, rightly or wrongly, consider morally incorrect. Germ theory and time travel have NOTHING to do with who "should" or "should not" be allowed to have sex with whom.

[(Anonymous)]

I think what's most relevant here is that Jamie survived extremely violent rape. Of course he's going to be edgy around a guy expressing sexual interest in him.

(Iirc, he wasn't particularly homophobic, either.)

[(Anonymous)]

This quote is long, so I'll tl;dr it:

Jamie Fraser believes/states that:

1) It is just not possible for two men to love another romantically, the way a man and a woman love one another.

2) Only men who can't have sex with women or a coward who's scared of women would have sex with other men, and it makes Fraser sick to his stomach.

3) Homosexuals are "pervert[s]" who "[mince about] and "[prey] upon helpless boys".

That... sounds fairly homophobic to me.



From Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade, Chapter 32:

[Context: Lord John Grey is discussing the arrest of his stepbrother for being caught in the act of having sex with another man.]

----
“It is honor—but not the honor of my reputation. The end of it,” Grey said slowly, seeing it at last, “is that I cannot in honor see him hanged for a crime whose guilt I share—and from whose consequences I am escaped by chance alone.”

Fraser stiffened slightly. “A crime whose guilt ye share.” His voice was careful, realization—and distaste—clear in the words. He stopped, clearly not wishing to say more, but he could scarcely leave the matter there.

“This man. He is not only your stepbrother, but…your…” He groped for a word. “Your catamite?”

“He was my lover, yes.” The words should have been tinged with bitterness, but were not. Sadness, yes, but
most of all, relief at the admission.

Fraser made a brief sound of contempt, though, and Grey turned upon him, reckless.

“You do not believe that men can love one another?”

“No,” Fraser said bluntly. “I do not.” His mouth compressed for an instant, and then he added, as though honesty compelled him, “Not in that fashion, at least. The love of brothers, of kin—aye, of course. Or of soldiers. We have—spoken of that.”

“Sparta? Yes.” Grey smiled without humor. They had fought the battle of Thermopylae one night, in his quarters at Ardsmuir Prison, using salt cellars, dice, and cuff buttons on a map scrawled with charcoal on the top of his desk. It had been one of their evenings of friendship.

“The love of Leonidas for his men, they for each other as warriors. Aye, that’s real enough. But to—to…use a man in such fashion…” He made a gesture of repudiation.

“Think so, do you?” Grey’s blood was already high; he felt it hot in his chest. “You’ve read Plato, I know. And scholar that you are, I would suppose that you’ve heard of the Sacred Band of Thebes. Perhaps?”

Fraser’s face went tight, and in spite of the dim light, Grey saw the color rise in him, as well.

“I have,” he said shortly.

“Lovers,” Grey said, realizing suddenly that he was gloriously angry. “All soldiers. All lovers. Each man and his beloved. Who would desert his beloved, or fail him in the hour of danger?” He gave Fraser stare for stare. “And what do you say to that, Mr. Fraser?”

The Scot’s eyes had gone quite black.

“What I would say,” he said, counting out the words like coins, “is that only men who lack the ability to possess a woman—or cowards who fear them—must resort to such feeble indecencies to relieve their lust. And to hear ye speak of honor in the same breath…Since ye ask, it curdles my wame. And what, my lord, d’ye say to that?”

“I say that I do not speak of the indecencies of lust—and if you wish to speak of such things, allow me to note that I have seen much grosser indecencies inflicted upon women by men, and so have you. We have both fought with armies. I said ‘love.’ And what do you think love is, then, that it is reserved only to men who are drawn to women?”

The color stood out in patches across Fraser’s cheekbones.

“I have loved my wife beyond life itself, and know that love for a gift of God. Ye dare to say to me that the feelings of a—a—pervert who cannot deal with women as a man, but minces about and preys upon helpless boys—that this is love?”
----

That is not the way it works.

[(Anonymous)]

I know there seems to be a high correlation between bigotry and ignorance of other things, but there are absolutely people out there right now that believe in scientific theory and are homophobic. A person can be progressive in some things, but not in others.