fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3892 ]

[ SECRET POST #3892 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3892 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 14 secrets from Secret Submission Post #557.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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No, a gay dating sim, with not a bishonen stereotype to be seen.

Sure. Not like the trans character isn't the very epitome of the bishonen vampire stereotype, not at all.

As a 40ish father of a teenager, calling Damien a youth would be a bit of a stretch, not to mention the whole issue of transness which yaoi can't handle without making a fucking joke out of it.

The artstyle sure doesn't make him look like 40ish though. And let's not pretend that the whole "issue of transness" is so obvious - plenty people actually never noticed it so it's completely irrelevant for this argument.

DATING AS A MIDDLE-AGED PARENT IS THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF THE FUCKING GAME!

And let's not pretend that the whole "issue of transness" is so obvious - plenty people actually never noticed it so it's completely irrelevant for this argument.

Yes, and that's exactly why it's not a yaoi-style dating sim.

THE STYLE DOESN'T REFLECT THE CHARACTER'S AGE THOUGH.

Yes, and that's exactly why it's not a yaoi-style dating sim.
That sentence doesn't make a lot of sense but ok. Nobody said it was, so I don't even know what you're on about (other than you being weirdly defensive about a bland dating sim that you try to put on a pedestal but which nobody will talk about in a few months).

Nobody said it was, ...

It's pretty stupid to lie about something that was said explicitly in the history of the thread.

That sentence doesn't make a lot of sense but ok.

Yaoi as a genre is generally not friendly to trans people, either taking the position of "LOL, it's a cross-dresser" or "LOL, he was taken in by a trap." The fact that Damien is just another guy is another marked difference from the way that yaoi treats the subject.

Nobody said it was, so I don't even know what you're on about (other than you being weirdly defensive about a bland dating sim that you try to put on a pedestal but which nobody will talk about in a few months).

I'm not putting it on a pedestal. I'm pointing out that it uses almost none of the formulas that characterize yaoi.

Someone asked whether it WAS a yaoi dating sim, nobody SAID that it's a yaoi-style dating sim.

In my opinion, making the weirdo Victorian-style cosplayer the trans character isn't exactly NOT making him a joke of a character but ymmv. It's also a lot like "Dumbledore is gay" - only with word of god actually confirmed and with zero impact on the story. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

ITT, I was mostly talking about the style element, mostly because I haven't actually played it. So I don't think talking about this any more makes any sense.

Someone asked whether it WAS a yaoi dating sim, nobody SAID that it's a yaoi-style dating sim.

> So by.... LGBTQ do you mean it's a yaoi dating sim?
> Yep

Not to mention the whole bulk of this thread has been devoted to arguing that Damien, a 40-ish father, is really bishonen and therefore the game has yaoi elements.

In my opinion, making the weirdo Victorian-style cosplayer the trans character isn't exactly NOT making him a joke of a character but ymmv.

Um, you do know that there's still a goth subculture, and that a large number of people in that subculture culture are LGBTQ?

It's also a lot like "Dumbledore is gay" - only with word of god actually confirmed and with zero impact on the story.

It's referenced in one of his dates. But, why should it have an impact on the story rather than just be something you incidentally discover by dating him?

ITT, I was mostly talking about the style element, mostly because I haven't actually played it.

If you've not played this game, then what makes you think you can argue about how a character was developed?

and therefore the game has yaoi elements
No. Nobody argued that.

Uhm, you know that for some people, the character is still maybe not the be all and end all for flawless, none ridiculous trans guy representation? It's almost as if these are opinions, not facts, oh my!

I've seen enough of the game, in playthroughs and snippets to roughly know the characters. I've seen most scenes with him via postings/discussion and my point still stands. I think he's a very sketchy choice for the, in my eyes, fairly gimmicky "transTM" character. It's almost as if people can have different opinions.

Look, Dream Daddy is an American dating sim created (in part) for an American LGBTQ audience focused on the dating lives of adult and middle-aged gay and bisexual fathers. If you want to argue the merits of yaoi or bishonen, there are plenty of media and characters that perfectly fit those genres and tropes. Trying to cram a middle-aged goth father into those tropes on the basis of squinting at the box art is bad game criticism.

Note that no one has said that Dream Daddy is perfect. What I've said is that Dream Daddy doesn't fit into a genre where most trans people are "LOL traps" or "LOL obvious cross-dresser." When the only times you see yourself on a screen (any screen) is as a dramatic problem, predator, or joke, there's nothing wrong with having works where it's referenced in passing and NOT a point of dramatic or comedic tension.

+100

(nothing wrong with the bishounen vampire stereotype btw.)

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

And yes, setting up unrealistic young, thin, youthful (which Damien explicitly is not) men on a pedestal contributes to the epidemic of eating and body image disorders among GBQ men. Which is an element of yaoi that DD explicitly rejects. (Not to mention the forumlas for how same-sex relationships are structured.)

Edited 2017-08-31 13:01 (UTC)

Nayrt

Okay, let's call him a "biseinen" then (which doesn't fit him as well, but you want to go into semantics, ok), doesn't change the fact that design-wise, he's very close to the stereotype.

And lol what? The body types portrayed in manga are not to blame for GBQ men's body image, (not to mention it's a fairly realistic body type for a lot of young men in Japan). So that argument is kind of weird, especially since except of one guy in the game we're talking about, everyone has a fairly idealised body type there as well so I don't see a lot of rejecting going on.

Okay, let's call him a "biseinen" then (which doesn't fit him as well, but you want to go into semantics, ok), doesn't change the fact that design-wise, he's very close to the stereotype.

Design-wise, he's a 40-ish parent of a teenager. It's the entire fucking premise of the game. If you're evaluating the characters in the game based entirely on cartoonish character art, you really don't know what you're talking about and need to back out of this discussion right now.

And lol what? The body types portrayed in manga are not to blame for GBQ men's body image, (not to mention it's a fairly realistic body type for a lot of young men in Japan). So that argument is kind of weird, especially since except of one guy in the game we're talking about, everyone has a fairly idealised body type there as well so I don't see a lot of rejecting going on.

Manga is a mass-market genre which is more widely available and sells more than LGBTQ-produced media. Yes, it is a factor in our mass-media environment, and you don't get to put in in a box and say that fetishistic commodification of GBQ bodies has absolutely no effect on the people portrayed.

You mean, the game that includes a bear and two geeks? The game where you can choose from multiple body types and it doesn't really influence your ability to date other people?

You're evaluating the characters in other yaoi dating games and manga based on their styliszed manga character art as well, so I don't see why you try to play the "design doesn't matter" card now.

You mean, the game that includes a bear and two geeks? The game where you can choose from multiple body types and it doesn't really influence your ability to date other people?

I mean the game where the geeks are fairly buff as well, the character designs are (probably intentionally) rip-offs of the male Overwatch cast and I can't actually think of any dating game where your player character's body type influences the dating-abilty of the characters but then again, I don't actually like dating sims anyway, be it this one or any other.

You're evaluating the characters in other yaoi dating games and manga based on their styliszed manga character art as well, so I don't see why you try to play the "design doesn't matter" card now.

I'm evaluating the characters in yaoi games based on their:
1. visual representation
2. textual representation, and
3. formulaic roles and plots.

Of course, I didn't say "design doesn't matter," I pointed out that Damien's design is that he's a 40-ish (give or take a few years) father of a teenager. Since we're talking about a video game you can't just look at the box art and make conclusions about the design of a character completely ignorant of the text and interactivity.

So what, 200 year old loli immortal gets any less loli if you KNOW she's actually 200 years old?

And again, I was mostly talking about the visual aspect, which is mainly what the word "bishonen" is about. It's literally a pretty boy. The characterisation, formulaic plot etc have no impact on whether or not someone is visually portrayed as a bishonen/biseinen.

Apples and oranges since loli is a fashion style and not necessarily a character archetype.

As far as I can tell, the only pretty boy in the game is Lucien, and he's not datable (because that would be creepy.) But, if you're going to judge interactive characters in a game based on the most superficial reading of the cover art, there's no point in arguing with deliberate and intentional ignorance.

Loli not as in lolita style but "creepy young girl fetish character".

You brought up bishounen stereotypes. And the only thing I said is that visually, at least one guy meets the "bishounen stereotype" mark quite a bit. Everything else here has been intentionally misreading thing on your part/interpreting things into it that were never said. So keep arguing in bad faith, I'm done with this.

Loli not as in lolita style but "creepy young girl fetish character"

Are you down to "humpty dumpty" discourse where you can define words willy nilly absent the cultural context of use?

You brought up bishounen stereotypes. And the only thing I said is that visually, at least one guy meets the "bishounen stereotype" mark quite a bit.

Yes, and as I pointed out, referring to a 40-year old father character as a "pretty boy" stretches that word beyond all proper meaning. If that's the extent of your argument, might as well just admit that you're an ignorant contrarian who doesn't understand what "bishounen" means as a narrative trope, and arguing from a position of ignorance as to what the game actually says about the character in question.

Everything else here has been intentionally misreading thing on your part/interpreting things into it that were never said.

Really? I've responded directly to what you've said. The problem is what you've said is a bunch of ignorant bullshit, both about the game you're trying to interpret, and the genre you're trying to shoehorn the character into.

By this point, you're just making shit up to be offended over, so nah, not going to continue this. Some of the things you claim are plain wrong, but if you want to lie and goalpost-move your way some more, go ahead.

It's pretty clear you're not operating on the same understanding of anime fandom that the people you're arguing are. Loli was very obvious given the context and many terms like BL, bishounen, and hentai have had their definitions altered some which usually happens with foreign loan words.

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cbrachyrhynchos - 2017-08-31 22:06 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2017-08-31 23:01 (UTC) - Expand

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cbrachyrhynchos - 2017-08-31 23:05 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2017-08-31 23:13 (UTC) - Expand

It seems frightfully dishonest to say beautiful youthful anime characters are bad because they cause eating disorders. Like, that's ridiculous.

I'm all for an increased range of portrayal in men and women in anime (and in media in general) but there isn't anything wrong with liking a certain design type like bishounen (or the female equivalent).

People like me are killing ourselves at 3-5 times the rate as straight people. We're hitting %20-50 seropositiviy in some communities. We experience major mental illness at 3-5 times the rate as straight people, and are nearly twice as likely to experience major medical issues past middle age. All of that is attributable to minority stress and medical discrimination fueled (in part) by mass media stereotypes.

Anime and Manga are among the largest import media genres currently active. LGBTQ-centric work is turning to kickstarter to get into print and patreon to pay the bills, but I can walk down the street from my office and find an entire shelf of boy's love.

So no, if you're favorite works are ubiquitous in the stores I visit, the body-policing, anti-gay, anti-trans, and gendered stereotypes that are genre conventions in those works are fair game for criticism. It's not about you, unless you choose it to make it about you by saying that it's beyond criticism.

EDIT: And frankly, the position that I can't criticize the genre conventions of how I'm portrayed on the page comes off as pretty damn anti-gay.

Edited 2017-08-31 22:55 (UTC)

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