fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #585 ]

[ SECRET POST #585 ]

⌈ Secret Post #585 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 280 secrets from Secret Submission Post #084.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Actually, people do say that. As a matter of fact, Phillip Pullman's hatred for the Chronicles of Narnia as "Christian Propaganda" is a large part of what prompted him to write His Dark Materials (which, lame as it may be, is my chief reason for not reading "Bitter Aethist Propaganda.")

That said, I had no idea people actually brought her religion into it. That's so incredibly lame.

Because really, those books are bad enough on their own merit.

And because dissing someone's beliefs is just stupid.

Ah, Pullman. I can't take Pullman seriously for that exact reason. I'm sorry that C.S. Lewis was a Christian, Pullman, did he also kill your puppy and kick your cat?

The whole concept of bringing anyone's religion into something like this just mystifies me. I haven't read Twilight and have no plans to, but hate it on the basis that it's a bad book, not on the basis that Stephanie Meyer is a Mormon. Not all of us are insane, I promise.

I'm sorry that C.S. Lewis was a Christian, Pullman, did he also kill your puppy and kick your cat?

I lol'd. I lol'd so hard, I think my flatmates heard me. I'm still laughing. Ah...that's the cherry on top of the day. Thanks.

I'm glad I could give you a good laugh!

I am lolling at you guys complaining about people ridiculing or bashing authors for being Christian, then complaining about/bashing Pullman for his atheism.

Not having read any of them I don't really care, but it is rather a double standard you've got going on here.

No, because atheists are going to Hell. DUH.

That seems rather beside the point.

dots and xanykaos really did not do that. If Pullman had simply wrote some books the way Meyers or Lewis wrote some books with his belief system underlining his ideas then no one would bother pointing his books out. It's the fact that he saw Lewis' books, thought, "Lousy Christian propaganda," and wrote something to combat what he thought was Christian brainwashing. Which really wasn't anything of the sort.

How many non-Christians out there read the Chronicles of Narnia and immediately thought, "I am going to convert to Christianity!" Has that ever really happened? And yet Pullman had a hissy fit over this very reason.

The two posters above are laughing at his silliness not because he's an atheist.

I don't really see how writing a series of children's books from an atheist point of view is having a hissy fit. But I suppose I can sympathize with someone who's annoyed by how much Christianity is shoved down the throats of kids in the UK, where it's still taught in state schools.

Richard fucking Dawkins, OTOH, really pisses me off.

Edited 2008-08-12 22:42 (UTC)

Why does Dawkins piss you off?

Because he's an arrogant fundamentalist "evolutionary psychologist" asshole. He's every bit as bad as the people he criticizes, and worse than quite a lot of them.

He wasn't just writing them from an atheist point of view. He was writing them as a rebuttal against Narnia. It's the bitterness that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
There's also the fact that it seems like the books don't say "there is no God" so much as "God's a crazy old psychopath who needs to be put out of his misery."

Funny, I know that Christianity's still taught in states schools, but coming from a very Catholic bit of the South, I'm a little overwhelmed at how simply...non-religious the place seems.
...Although good grief, if all the churches are as bad as the ones I've been to the past month, I don't blame 'em.

Funny, I know that Christianity's still taught in states schools, but coming from a very Catholic bit of the South, I'm a little overwhelmed at how simply...non-religious the place seems.

You mean the UK? I'm going to assume you are... it's funny, I was thinking about this last night. When I first started to get to know a number of Americans online, one of the first things that surprised me was how many of them went to church, how much more religious people in the US are than people in the UK. It was a cultural difference I really wasn't prepared for, and it does seem odd when you consider that the UK is "officially" a Christian country and the US officially has separation between church and state! Yet far fewer people here say they believe in God, or in a God as described by the major religions, and even those who regard themselves as Christian seem to spend a lot less time going to church. Possibly because Church of England services are really darn dull.

Although I found it extremely weird to hear a school telling young children about God and Jesus when I went to a mother's day gathering at my nephew's school, from my own childhood I remember regarding the Biblical stories in pretty much the same light as I regarded the stories we were taught about what the ancient Egyptians believed. Come to think of it, I did read the first couple of Narnia books as a child and didn't even notice that they were a Christian allegory. I suspect the general attitude here is that it's good to learn about these things as they're part of our cultural heritage (and indeed, you really can't get much out of all kinds of classical literature if you don't know at least the basics of the Bible, just as you need to know the basics of the Greek and Roman myths!), but since they're not particularly taught as if we should believe in them, it doesn't produce the nation of "brainwashed" Christians that people like Pullman might fear.

Re: 138

xanykaos.livejournal.com - 2008-08-13 17:55 (UTC) - Expand

Pullman wrote His Dark Materials SOLELY BECAUSE he wanted to combat the "propaganda" that is Chronicles of Naria? Really? Truly and seriously? Source plz? (Not trying to be rude but come on - unless he explicitly stated that, why would you believe that?)

And how many Christians out there read His Dark Materials and immediately thought, "I am going to become an atheist!" Has that ever really happened? And yet lots of people have had a hissy fit over this very reason.

Did I say "soley"? Did anyone? I said "a large part" and that's true. He's said he hates the Narnia books, and that he was trying to undermine the basis of Christian beliefs (the article was in the Washington Post, called "The Last Word").
I'm sure he wanted to write a story as well, but I think most of what inspired HDM was the desire to be the "anti-Narnia." He got one very big thing wrong, in that case, to me. Narnia never made a secret about what it was--very shortly into LWW, you pick up the Christian theme, and by the end of the book, it's obvious. If you didn't like the Christian theme, well, the story ends there. Whereas Northern Lights just seems like a cool adventure book, and ends where you have to read the next one to find out what happens, and that one's a little bit darker, a little bit moreso...and that ends on a cliffhanger as well, so you have to read the last one, and by that point, it's just straight up THERE IS NO GOD OR AFTERLIFE OR ANYTHING AND THE CHURCH IS EVIL!!!!!!

I find that funny, given that what he dislikes about Narnia:

"I didn't read the 'Narnia' books until I was grown up," Pullman said, "and I could sort of see what he was getting at, and he was getting at the reader in a way I didn't like. The 'Narnia' books are full of serious questions about religion: 'Which God should we worship? Is there a God at all? What happens when we die?' The questions are all there, but I don't like Lewis' answers."

So he went and wrote his own series doing exactly that, but with his answers. Fine, except he's still "getting at the reader" with "serious questions about religion."

Gaiman (my favourite author, raised messily-Jewish and is now goodness-knows-what-if-anything, but at least he treats all manners of faith or lack-thereof with equal respect) once said what he didn't like about the Narnia books was the way they sort of snuck religion into there, but I think that Pullman's way of doing it was much sneakier.

That wasn't really directed at you, but okay.

He doesn't like the Narnia books. That's what the quote says. It doesn't say "Oh, I wrote these books because I wanted to write an alternate version of Narnia but with bashing of Christianity and evilness, k." That's a drawn conclusion. I'd need more evidence than just "I didn't like those Narnia books." And of course his books were going to undermine the basis of Christian beliefs - he's an atheist. His beliefs aren't compatitble with Christianity or religion.

So the whole story wasn't seated in his beliefs until the last book? Huh. Odd. I've heard differently?
Maybe it's just a matter of perception?

I just don't get why it's so bad for him to have his beliefs (which include that religion is no good) in a book. Why is that so horrible and detestable (especially if it was saved until the last book, according to you?) but a book with unapologetic Christian themes is okay? It's still beliefs, either way.

I'm not bashing his atheism. I just find the concept ridiculous, honestly. He can be atheist as he likes; it's when he starts whining about C.S. Lewis' work being "too Christian" that I start rolling my eyes.

To clarify.

There are a lot of stories out there about corrupt churches, gods that don't actually exist, faiths manipulating people for political gain. It's really one of the oldest stories ever told. I enjoy these stories based on how they're written, even if I disagree with the themes inherent, because they're just stories.

C.S. Lewis wrote what he believed. I don't know if Pullman wrote HDM directly in response to how much he hated the allegory, and frankly, I don't care. But he has, repeatedly, talked about how much he hates Lewis' Christian influence and how he sees it as brainwashing.

I have no problem with Pullman writing atheist books because he's an atheist. I have no problem with his books at all, really -- not my cup of tea, but that's neither here nor there.

What I find ridiculous is his vendetta-like grudge against Christian's children lit. Classic children's lit, no less, and his only reasoning is that Lewis was writing an allegory. I have my beefs with Narnia, too, and that's true for most people who have read them. I dislike what Lewis did with Susan. But to go so far as to attack Lewis' religion is hitting below the belt, quite honestly.

That's why I dislike Pullman. I don't like his writing, not for that reason, but because I find it dull. I don't like him as a person because of how often he brings this vendetta up. It has nothing to do with his own beliefs, or his own writing. It's all because he's attacking someone else for beliefs they have.

I hope that now I sound slightly more coherent.

Thank you. This. Just. All this.

I should never engage in philosophical/religious debates after 1AM. I'm nowhere near coherent enough to say what you just said perfectly without flubbing what I mean(which is probably why the anons blew this all madly out of proportion).

And because dissing someone's beliefs is just stupid.

So LOL at your disdain for Pullman.

Oh, my disdain has nothing to do with his beliefs. He's an aethist, fine. It's the bitter "I hate Christianity (usually much more than any other organised religion) and must tell everyone who believes in it that they're stupid and wrong!" bit that I hate.
Also, just how depressing the books apparently get at the end.

Basically, Lewis wrote an allegory about why God is good. Pullman wrote an allegory about why Christianity sucks. See the difference? (I'll give you a hint--it's the last word in each sentence).

So you have a problem with criticism? And depressing stories?

No. But at the moment I do have a problem with people being deliberately ignorant to try and employ some kind of psuedo-Socratic method.

I have a problem with bitter aethists. Not even aethists in general. Just the bitter ones who behave like jackasses because they're just so mad that some people believe in something they don't. I have a problem with Bible-thumping Christians who think their way is the only right way to see things as well.

Y'know what, it's like those Subways/Quiznos adverts. I've stopped eating at Quiznos because of it. Subway goes: "Try our food! It's yummy! To say thanks for trying our food, we're reducing the price on this item!" Quiznos goes: "Try our food because Subway's food sucks! They can't do sandwiches right! They don't toast them--and we know everyone wants their sandwich toasted! Subway did this thing, but you'd be an idiot to spend your five bucks there when you could spend it at our place!"

That's the difference between Narnia and HDM, to me.

I'm not wildly a fan of depressing stories either. I still like my tragedies and all, but I want there to be a friggen point at the end.

No. But at the moment I do have a problem with people being deliberately ignorant to try and employ some kind of psuedo-Socratic method.

Is this an insult?

I agree with you. I really do. Both types of people annoy me. And I'm not trying to be rude, I meant no harm. But I really don't see HSM as some kind of blantant bashing of Christianity. I saw it as a warning against oppressive and tyrant institutions.

As for me, I don't know anything about Pullman, and even if he was a raging jackass who hates Christianity and the like, why would I even care? I'd still read the story for the story, regardless. I am wholeheartedly convinced that Trent Reznor is a huge asshole. But I love Nine Inch Nails. I love his music. I can seperate the two. See how that works?

And I'm pretty sure there was a point to HDM. Just because it was a point that you might not like or agree with, doesn't mean there was no point at all.

Uh, peace?

LOL I meant HDM. xD

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