fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #589 ]

[ SECRET POST #589 ]

⌈ Secret Post #589 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 25 pages, 619 secrets from Secret Submission Post #085.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Jeez, what's with the anti-feminist secrets today?

103 You realize that a lot of people don't have RL friends who are in fandoms at all, or even know what fandom really is, or being fannish is, and don't write fanfic or follow anime or pay attention to the canon of television shows, and can't share any of this with their RL friends? Until I met local people through fandom, I didn't have RL friends online/in fandom either. You're really lucky that your RL friends aren't laughing at you for caring to much about "some book" or "some cartoon" or "some movie." Many aren't. (Not that my other RL friends ever laughed at me; they're just not into it, but I know the RL friends of other people have.)

104 It's one of the great mysteries of the universe.

112 ♥ Aang was awesome, and totally in his own way.

124 It's one of those things where since almost everyone ships it, no one mentions it and there's no fic. Which is a little counterintuitive and sucks, but it happens a lot.

126 Um, there are books written by women with male narrators, first of all, and second, I think you're just psyching yourself out. Seriously, whatever.

128 MTV Animation SUCKS about that. Where are those, and where are the Sifl & Olly DVDs? What's wrong with you people?

135 You imply that it's normal to tell people about your sex dreams. I don't tell people about my sex dreams. Jesus, don't you people have any boundaries?

138 If it's some female characters in some places, whatever. If it's every single female character in a canon (even when there's a huge variety) or every single female character in every canon, ever, then there's a problem. And I've heard people say that on the one side the characters are too weak and lame, and on the other side that they're mary sues, and I'm like, what is with you people, that you think women's lives are unworthy of fiction?

149 Staying sane in fandom rule #5: You can't control what other people do. Let it go.

159 ♥ I love them!

169 Seriously? That is so horrible I have to laugh. I don't blame you for breaking the lamp.

174 They sound that way to you because that's what you expect them to sound like. I'm really tired of this—all feminism is, is saying that women should be treated like people. That's pretty much it. We haven't found a way to talk about the sort of "male power structure" in a way that doesn't sound, well, sort of silly, but that doesn't mean they don't have a point. Try just listening to their actual point for once.

185 Just because you're in the minority doesn't mean you're wrong. But maybe you should concentrate less on bitching out those other people and more on creating the things you like, and an environment for other people to do the same. Make your part of fandom a fun place to be and maybe you'll be able to attract a few more people to it. Work harder to find the few people who also like what you like. Create some communities. It's more work, but huddling down with the few people who think the same sort of thing is awesome is really really fun; it's one of the most fun things about small ships or small fandoms.

That said, if what you like isn't what appeals to the average 16-year-old fangirl, you're never going to have the numbers with you. That's just how it goes; they're the ones who make things really popular. But if you don't like what they like, then you're not going to want to entice them into your end of fandom anyway. Trust me.

Jeez, what's with the anti-feminist secrets today?

I was about to say something on that, ha ha. Maybe it's a large-scale troll attempt!

My theory is they're all the same person. Usually when one type of secret (barring ones based around super-popular fandoms) suddenly get posted a whole lot at once, that's probably it.
Troll or sincere? No idea, since some people really are that dumb.

Sometimes, but I think sometimes it's also Case putting together a Theme Day.

And as you see in the other comments-to-my-comment, some people absolutely ARE that dumb.

Internet-based fandom seems to be all about the My Sex Fantasies, Let Me Show You Them.

"I'm really tired of this—all feminism is, is saying that women should be treated like people."

Yes, but that's not what "Fandom Feminists" say. That's what *real* feminists say. They're very few and far between in fandom. Most Fandom Feminists don't care about women being treated more equally, they just want to continue the cycle of victimhood that is rampant in American society. Which, BTW, is completely *against* the real goal of feminism.

What, exactly, are you basing this assumption on?

The majority of "feminist" fan-blogs, the rather large fandom reaction to any bias that works *against* women but total lack of reaction whenever a bias works *for* them and a healthy dose of a modern, educated woman's common sense.

Your lack of specific examples and vehementally anti-feminist attitude elsewhere make me inclined to call bullshit. Can you get a little more specific or give an example instead of simply asserting that fandom feminists have a victimization complex?

The first name that comes to mind is Girl-Wonder.org. It's a site devoted to enshrining the suffering of one female character as occured through one storyline, whose argument is entirely based on that *one incident* with no further back-up, and if you dare to question the worthiness of said female character, they pull out the misogynist card and tell you to STFU.

I do agree with you that Girl-Wonder.org has issues (and, as an outsider, the lack of an updated and comprehensive view is especially easy to spot as an issue), but Girl-Wonder is only one website and the points that they make about the sexualization of violence are more or less valid if not out of date.

I don't think that what you've been saying about every fandom feminist existing to perpetuate victimhood is fair. Do you not believe there are any issues with the treatment of female characters in media, or do you just believe that every fandom feminist is going to be as fiercely defensive as Stephanie Brown's fans?

Considering that "fandom feminist" is the term I use for people who act like that (because there just *isn't* a good term to use for it, you should *see* the fallout from some of my other posts about what I used to call them) yes, I do believe that "fandom feminists" are going to be as fiercely defensive and whiny as Steph Brown's fans.

Real feminists, on the other hand, are the ones who promote equality with a reasonable argument and understanding. They don't bitch about how high-heeled boots are the bane of feminine empowerment or cry 'victim' and 'misogynyst' every time a heroine gets into (and out of) some sort of trouble. They make clear, concise arguments about the things that are really important and know when a story element is just a god-damn story element.

Real feminists, on the other hand, are the ones who promote equality with a reasonable argument and understanding. They don't bitch about how high-heeled boots are the bane of feminine empowerment or cry 'victim' and 'misogynyst' every time a heroine gets into (and out of) some sort of trouble. They make clear, concise arguments about the things that are really important and know when a story element is just a god-damn story element.

And those feminists, when they apply themselves to fandom, tend to refer to themselves as "fandom feminists."

I don't know what else you tried to call them, but you're still inadvertantly painting everyone with the same brush. The way I see it, you shouldn't be complaining about feminists at all - just the arguments that you find superflous, ridiculous or demeaning.

What I'm complaining about are the people who call themselves 'feminists' and then use those superflous, ridiculous and demeaning arguments. It's nearly to address the arguments without adressing the people who are making them, especially when it seems to be an entire mindset.

I've tried every term I can think of. Can't called the "Womyn" without offending the part of the non-nutso feminists who take that term seriously. Can't call them "fandom feminists" or "comic book feminists" without including "Feminazis" was just a disaster, and I somehow doubt that "feminuts" is going to be any better. There's just *nothing* to call them that doesn't include somebody who doesn't belong under the term.

Then don't call them anything. Address the arguments you have issue with instead of trying to categorize the people who are making those arguments.

Thank you for pointing out the problems here! ITA with all you've said.

Just wanted to say that this comment rocks.

Re: 174

felinephoenix.livejournal.com - 2008-08-17 23:20 (UTC) - Expand

I totally agree. Categorizing people who are making bad or ridiculous arguments under some kind of umbrella merely allows you to dismiss them with a wave of your hand instead of actually pointing out where their arguments fail. The more that you do that without resorting to "naming" them, the more that the kind of argument you prefer will be circulated. If you keep your argument on that level you'll find you'll be listened to more often.

In addition, if you don't understand that in a society with a marked power differential biases "for" and biases "against" are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same (not unlike that old bugbear 'reverse racism' which hello, does not exist) then you need to rethink the arguments. Given that men and women don't start on an even playing field, the biases cannot be treated in the same way.

Is that the crazy woman who thinks killing off female characters means you hate women? (And obviously doesn't see a problem with killing of male characters.) I was thinking of her watching The Dark Knight. A gun pointed at a little boy. I'm thinking, "Remember kids, it's not a fridging if it happens to a guy!"

Are you thinking of Gail Simone and Women in Refrigerators (http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/)? I believe that was just intended to point out how many women in comics are killed, beaten, depowered, etc. and nothing more.

There's actually quite a bit more to GW.org. It's true that Steph and her death were the inspiration for the site, but the forums and blogs (which is where I lurk) discuss comics and feminist issues in general, not just The Almighty Spoiler.

I agree the site's not perfect - I have some issues myself - but you should really look deeper into the site before you generalize like that.

I've tried, trust me - the site itself is so poorly laid out that I can hardly find *any* of the blogs. All I've ever been able to locate is the gigantic Spoiler Shrine - and, to be perfectly honest, that incident seems to be the *only* evidence of 'anti-feminism' that any of the bloggers have ever put forth. The rest is just the same superficial arguments about breasts, spandex and high heels, which always make me roll my eyes.

The site's poorly laid out, that's true. But seriously, check out the forums (http://www.girl-wonder.org/forums/). Lots of discussion of things that aren't Spoiler and costumes there. And for reference, two of the main (http://girl-wonder.org/insideout/) columns (http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/) have top posts about con harassment.

I get that a lot of people don't agree with Girl Wonder on the Spoiler thing, and that all the talk about costumes and boobs gets old, but that's NOT all comics feminists talk about. Not even at Girl Wonder, which as someone else pointed out, is only one site and not some sort of hivemind for feminist comic fans.

Sifl and Olly! ROCK! I love you. And also Precious Roy. He has the best stuff.

I miss Chester!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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