Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-09-20 05:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-09-20 05:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #624 ]
⌈ Secret Post #624 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
I'm not even going to bother posting the obvious trolls any more.
CITY STUFF → [ pop com ]
Secrets Left to Post: 21 pages, 515 secrets from Secret Submission Post #090.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ], [ 1 - I don't know what this is trying to say ], [ 1 - warning that we're on Portal of Evil (we've known for months) ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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As far as the ladies go, the only female I felt was handled well was Izumi Curtiss. Winry, Riza, RanFan, even Lust, were all treated terribly. Winry is both 'The Girl Back Home' and 'The Childhood Best Friend.' Arakawa also faces the problem with Winry that she can't seem to decide what kind of person she wants Winry to be; is she the strong, independent girl who can stand on her own or is she the crybaby who needs to be protected? She has some insane mood swings and to such an extreme level that it's far more noticeable and annoying and it never seems to change. She never seems to really grow. In fact, in some ways she takes some steps back. The whole scenario with her and Scar was flashy and visually powerful but it was so completely over-the-top in a way that, for me, was just bad and didn't really seem to match Winry's character. It bugged me particularly because in the anime, her reaction to finding out that Roy, someone she knew and respected, killed her parents wasn't nearly as intense as her reaction to Scar. And of course, who is the one to calm her down and protect her? Ed. This is pretty similiar to the Lust v. Riza scene, which pretty much ruined everything I liked about her. Riza is a smart woman, so why, when Lust tells her that she's killed Roy and has no proof whatsoever to back up her claim, does Riza believe her without a doubt and decide that she's got no reason left to live? She uses all her bullets trying to kill Lust and when that fails, falls to her knees and sobs that she has no reason left to go on living. That's not the Riza I'd known for 10 volumes of manga and a 50 episode anime. Not even close. And then of course Roy comes in all badass, having just burned his own flesh to stop the bleeding, and saves Riza in addition to getting the glory of sending Lust to her grave. And yes, Roy calls Riza out on her behavior, but Riza doesn't at all change from this experience. She doesn't grow. At all.
And RanFan has little to no personality. She's there more or less to be Ling's love interest and they fit the typical Master/Servant stereotype to a T. Roy/Riza do, too.
Ultimately, my biggest issue with the manga is that visually, yes, it's amazing and tops the anime by a mile. When I think of the anime in terms of things that visually stand out to me, I really can't think of anything. The manga? I can think of lots of things. But that flashyness comes at the expense of the characters and rarely have any sort of emotional impact to back it up (the scenes I mentioned above being a good example of this, as well as Hughes and Nina's deaths and the revelation of Envy's true form. Pride, too.) And I say all this as someone who read the manga and fully expected to like it far more than the anime and was genuinely disappointed.
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I never liked Ran Fan. To be honest, she's probably one of my least favourite FMA characters. She's a cardboard cutout of a character with no personality and, like you said, is there to give Ling some romantic drama. And that's about it.
Winry has never really stood out that much to me; I think she pretty much fits the 'Hero's Love Interest' stereotype to a T and to me, that cheapens her (I know we're analysing the manga here but, honestly, the 3rd anime ending with her posed suggestively all over the screen didn't really help my opinion). But I personally have never cared that much about her or her development, so I really don't have too much to say. But I agree about the whole Roy vs. Scar thing, and how her reaction to Scar was somewhat ridiculous considering she didn't even confront Roy in the anime (if she did, apologies, it's been a few years since I saw it).
Now, the female character I always admired throughout the anime was Riza. She was my favourite, and I loved her strength, resolve and determination. She gave me hope that it's possible for a shounen series to have female characters that exist for more than just fanservice or to be the 'Hero's Girl'. However, in the manga, she frustrated me. That scene with Lust was a pretty big reason. At first, I thought her breakdown was very dramatic and I liked it, but as I pondered it a little more I realised how, well, out of character it seemed. I had always admired Riza for her coolheadedness, and the fact that she, like you said, completely believed Lust and decided to breakdown and cry about it was rather...well, disappointing. I mean, I know about how she's promised to protect Roy and all that jazz but jesus woman, see the body and get some confirmation before you start bawling! (And preferably finish the battle first, too.) The fact that she just gave up really let me down.
So yeah. I stopped reading a little bit further on then you did, and I have to say that Olivia Armstrong is amazing, but she wasn't enough to keep me interested in the manga. I think I'll just stick to the anime.
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I also did like Winry in the anime, mostly because I did enjoy her platonic relationship with the brothers and the potential for a completely fucked-up relationship with Roy (though the movie frustrated me as far as she's concerned because I hated the way it portrayed her as being oh so hung up on Ed.) But yeah, manga!Winry has just been written and developed terribly. (And yes, she did confront Roy but the focus was more on Roy than on her because it was when he went to yell at the Elrics about never asking for his help, etc.)
I never cared much for Riza, simply because I don't find her character type appealing but I did always appreciate her and what she brought to the series. So to see what she was reduced to in the manga was just disheartening. The whole Lust fiasco pissed me off (not only because of what it did to Riza but because what the hell, was Lust's whole purpose in this series just to die?) So disappointing.
I'll be sticking to the anime, too. Everything I've heard about what happens later in the manga has turned me off from it more and more (particularly Pride. What the hell.)
AND COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC BUT PIEDMON. *A*
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Oh boy, agreeing with everything you just said about Winry. I think I like her relationship with the brothers far more when it's just platonic. It gives her more depth as a character. And inorite? The Winry/Roy potential for mindfuck was huge but then the movie made them both hung up on Ed and that kind of disappointed me. A lot. (But I still thought the movie was epic.) Ah, I knew she must have confronted Roy, but it's annoying that it wasn't about her parents. Honestly, Roy killing her parents was so much more deep and dramatic than some random Ishbalan (sorry, Scar, but you've never thrilled me either) topping them off.
And pride is just shota bait. Srsly.
what the hell, was Lust's whole purpose in this series just to die?
This. The whole treatment of the homunculi in the manga pissed me off.
AND I AM SUCH A PIEDMON FANTARD IT ISN'T FUNNY AND OH MY LAWD DIGIMON @_@
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The Ed/Winry relationship in the manga makes me see red, good God. It's so badly written. And the platonic relationship between the three of them in the anime was so much more interesting. And she did confront Roy about killing her parents. He was acting cold and distant or something (I haven't watched this episode in awhile, forgive me for not being more clear on this!) and she was like, "Was that what you were like when you killed my parents?!" and Riza steps in and stops her before she can carry on and really call him out. And Scar, to me, has always just been there. To be there. Yeah.
WHO THOUGHT MAKING THAT KID PRIDE WAS A GOOD IDEA? SERIOUSLY. Not just for the shota but for God's sake, if you're gonna have one of the Big Bads be someone we already know and have it be a big mystery and such, at least make it someone we care about. Having it be that kid that appeared once or twice is just stupid. B|
This. The whole treatment of the homunculi in the manga pissed me off.
Basically.
DIGIMON OH MY GOD. I JUST REWATCHED THE FIRST TWO SEASONS RECENTLY. OH GOD, STILL THE BEST SHOW EVER. THANK YOU. ♥
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It's like...I don't even know where the hell Ed/Winry is going in the manga. Seriously. WHAT ARE THEY DOING?! It's like one second they're all lovey dovey 'I will protect you' shoujo style, and the next they're, well, not. It's like the pairing had moodswings or something. Idk. But like I said, I was never really a fan.
Dude, at least you remembered there was a confrontation! (I kind of really wanted Winry to take a wrench to Roy or something equally dramatic/angsty, but I fear Riza might have shot her (...which would open the way for moar drama/angst! I like this plan!)). And yeah, Scar. Yep. Him. That guy. Who..I don't really give a shit about. He's just...yep, there. Awesome. =/ Woo.
Lmfao, that was my reaction! When he was revealed as Pride, I was all 'who's this kid again? Oh, right! I knew that.' Yeah, not really very exciting stuff. Made for fun shoops, though. (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2wq7i9h&s=4)
WHY HELLO THERE ICON! DIGIMON 01 OH MY LAWD I LOVE IT SO MUCH. Srsly. Just looking at this icon makes me feel all nostalgic and ;_______; BEST. SHOW. EVER I AM RAISING MY KIDS ON THIS SHIT.
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I disagree with you on the treatment of the homunculi - the anime explanation didn't make as much sense, and treated the Gate as nothing more than a semi Deus ex Machina to a very large extent. What bothered me the most was that the whole point of the anime was "right that Equivalent Exchange business we kept on about? IT WAS ALL BULL, LOLOL". Which I didn't like. And the thing is that later on in the manga we are definitely seeing the homunculi manifest as characters in and of themselves, and not completely subservient to Father. And what I like about them in the manga is that they are perfectly capable of being pwned by humans, through human ingenuity - as opposed to the anime, where they were treated like demigods, and had to be weakened through all sorts of external elements before humans could even touch them. The futility of humanity in the anime was really darn depressing, for me.
I also like the manga's treatment of both Ed and Al much more than I like the anime's. But then, Roy in the manga is more of a douche, I think, than he is in the anime. And Winry ... while I agree that there were several badly-done and slightly melodramatic scenes with her, I like the fact that we see her living her own life in Rush Valley, and working on herself - and becoming very proactive in the scenes with Scar, Kimblee, and later on. She becomes important for herself, not just as the Childhood Friend, which I felt the anime relegated her to.
Personally, a lot of the plot elements of the anime just seemed more melodramatic, and thus ended up weaker, in my opinion. There were many scenes that it seemed to me they milked for as much drama as they could, and for no real reason. Like the 5th laboratory, and the Nina episode.
I guess I'm trying to say that there ARE some sane manga fans? And while I'm really excited over the new anime, I do agree though that retconning essentially the entire anime sucks. There were a lot of things the anime did that were very good, and it remains one of the best anime series I've ever watched, and one of my favorites. Throwing it away entirely is not fair treatment, imho.
sorry for the tl;dr
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Just dropping by to agree with this sentiment. I loved the FMA anime so much; it breaks my heart that they seem to be retconning the whole thing. ;_;
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Re: 143
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 09:56 pm (UTC)(link)If you don't mind, I'd love to hear you opinion on why you dislike it.
I think that Riza is awesome, going from a very emotional girl to a well-trained army sniper due to the Civil War. It shows how much a woman can change due to war. She isn't crying or upset like some shonen series make their women when they are emotionally tramautized. Instead, she bottles it up like the military taught her to.
She is only living because of Roy, which is very chauvenistic, I can say, in one view, but I just don't see it that way. I see her dying if Roy dies because Roy is the last bit of faith she has left in the world after her father's death and the war. If he dies, her connections to her past self, her emotional, caring self, would be gone, and without that, she feels like all her emotions would disappear, thus she would be an empty doll for the military, the exact opposite of what her father raised her to be, from what little flashback we saw.
Ran Fan, on the other hand, was raised as the Prince's protector, and instead of crying because Ling became evil, she swore to get stronger to help save him from himself. Very respectable, in my opinion, but to each their own.
Maybe I'm overanalysizing it. I've been told I do that. Seriously, please share your opinion. I'd love to hear it.
Re: 143
Again, I stopped reading the manga before Riza's backstory was revealed and before Winry's second encounter with Scar, but I will say concerning that; I wasn't at all impressed with their treatment for the 14 or so volumes prior to those events and honestly? I shouldn't have to wait that long to begin to be impressed. Riza's backstory can explain why she is who she is at the beginning of the series, but over the present course of the series? She doesn't grow. And that's a bit of a problem. And backstory can only do so much; it's great to say, "Oh, well, here's why a character is the way they are at the beginning" but when they don't grow even from that (that being the beginning of the series) then, well, what good is that? Especially if the character is considered a main character, as Riza is.
RanFan, from what I saw, had little to her other than her desire to protect Ling. That's about as far as she was ever taken. She came, she lost her arm, she was gone again. She's just now reappearing. So yes, she could do some badass stuff now, but as I said before, I shouldn't have to wait 80+ chapters for it.
The manga really bugs me as far as the girls as a whole (minus Izumi because yes) have the problem where Arakawa continuously has to remind us that they have a backbone! :D Strong women! but they either lack in personality (a la RanFan), Arakawa can't decide what personality they should have (Winry), or their personality doesn't leave much room for development (Riza). And aslo? They're all stereotypes. They may not be the most prominent stereotypes, true, but they are stereotypes nonetheless.
Re: 143
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)First, I think the homunculi are amount equal in the anime and manga, but on totally different grounds. In the manga, they aren't typical flunkies. They are a part of an evolution to humanity, who, in being so, believe they have the right to treat humans like animals to their own end. Gluttony has emotions, missing Lust extrememly, going insane, even, to avenge her death. I'd say more, but I don't think you've read quite that far yet.
I blame lack of personality for Ran Fan on the lack of appearance. I'd argue it, but I really can't since you do have a good point. She will still be one of my favorite characters, partially due to her badass and partially due to me being a sucker for Master/Slave relationship. [Which I have found is integrated into almost every type of pairing you can think of. I actually like Male-Master with female-slave the least, though. Female-masters are more interesting.]
Winry's personality kept changing, in my own opinion, because she herself is unsure of what to do. She is a teenager, still trying to find her place in the world. She feels left behind by Ed and Al because they are growing up quicker than her, so she is trying to rush her own personality growth ahead of what it should be, which I have seen happen with real life people before, one of the aforementioned friends, in fact. But, that might not be what Arakawa had in mind. As for the reaction to Roy, I thought that was far underdone. Even if you find out someone you know and respected killed your parents, you would want to kill them. You would want them to suffer, just as she acted with Scar. You have to understand her thoughts too. She was surprised and enraged, not knowing how to respond, so she acted on instinct, which, with Scar, is not the best way to do it, thus making a large stand still, making the scene seem over the top, at least in my opinion.
As for Riza, going along the same strand I started in the first comment, she does not want to change, thus is fighting herself to keep from changing, to keep herself the way she is now. She faced being alone with the Fuhrer without Roy's help. She has grown when forced, but unless that comes up, she does not want to. Change means she could lose the stability she has. She is comfortable with herself as she is now. Change might upset that.
Yes, they are stereotypes, but, in my opinion, they are a new, better spin on the old stereotypes. As you said, they have a strong backbone and a very strong will to fight, which they actually do very well, thus standing out from most typical shonen women. Yes, Arakawa takes a long time to develop a clear character focus, but I like it. It is like piecing together a puzzle and then being shown a picture of what it was supposed to be.
I apologize if I rambled in there too much, but I wanted to make sure to get my opinion out there successfully. Then again, I read the manga expecting to be disappointed after all the stories I had heard, but was happily surprised. Maybe that is the base difference in our opinions.
Re: 143
I'd disagree on the Homunculi for the most part. I will give you Gluttony, yes, and perhaps Pride, but the Homunuculi as a whole with the exception of Pride were little more than Father's lackies. They don't have their own goals or motivations, they simply do what Father wants them to. And while it makes sense in the context why this is the case, it takes away a lot of what I, as a big fan of the Homunculi in the anime, really enjoyed about them. Particularly Envy. But that'sa whole 'nother rant, one I could go on and on about, so we'll move on from that.
Ran Fan's lack of personality is due to her lack of appearance, but she really doesn't have much of a personality/presence even when she is there. And that's a big problem right there.
I can understand that arguement on Winry perfectly, the problem is that just looking at the material, that's not the impression that I get. If that's what Arakawa was aiming for, she'd need to make it more clear that that's the case, because it really takes a stretch to write off Winry's constantly changing personality being because of the fact that she's a teenager. Because that would make sense, but that's not really how it's presented to be in the context of the story. As far as the Roy v. Scar thing, I can understand that to a degree. I think that her reaction to Roy made sense due to the situation and because she had the time between when she found out and when she saw him to think it over and she was obviously furious and hurt and confused over it, but because she had that time she was able to keep herself a bit more calm, whereas with Scar she just went hysterical and pulled a gun on him. Which to me is way too over the top for Winry, who I can understand having a breakdown over the whole thing, but pulling a gun on him? That just doesn't really work for me. Especially since they later used that whole thing as an actual basis for development for Ed, whereas all Winry seemed to get from it was the realization that she was in love with Ed.
I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make with Riza no wanting to change. That doesn't explain her extreme and irrational and uncharacteristic reaction to Lust and her just giving up then and there. If it was proven that Roy was dead, then I might be able to have bought that, but as I mentioned; Riza's smart. So why did she believe Lust when she had no proof? The fact that she didn't develop from the encounter is an annoying thing to me but not as much as the fact that she gave up and broke down over something she had no reason at all to even believe to be true.
A better spin, yes. A new spin, I wouldn't really say so. The reason I think it might seem to be so on first look is because none of them are physically; all of them kick ass. Quite frequently. But see, ass kicking does not a good female character make [though it helps. A lot.] You need to have a good balance between their physical strength, their inner strength, and still have them have a good, likeable, developing personality. None of the FMA girls have that balance and therein lies the problem. Arakawa keeps pushing their kick assness in my face but I really don't care how much ass they kick if they, as people, aren't likeable or believeable. And I don't think that they are.