fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4525 ]

[ SECRET POST #4525 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4525 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 25 secrets from Secret Submission Post #648.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I guess I'll be the asshole here because I tend to agree with the "gay male gatekeepers"--and in my experience it's basically never some cishet girl playing pretend (the days of "it's only women who read/enjoy slash/BL" are long over and finding men who participate in fandom is pretty easy). Provided they're not saying things in an overly aggressive way or singling out a specific author or artist for what should usually really be a more general fandom critique, I think there's a hell of a lot to critique in general slash fandom and even more in general BL fandom, and some self-identified "fujoshis" can be pretty insufferable towards actual gay/bi/queer men in fandom. A lot of the stereotypes that come from BL fandom in particular (the rigid "seme/uke" dynamics, the casual dub/non-con, the weepy feminine uke and strong muscular dorito-shaped seme, etc) are kind of gross and it shouldn't be surprising that these things rub many gay men in fandom the wrong way. (Some of it is so over the top that they can almost feel like homophobic parodies of gay relationships.)

It's one thing to simply enjoy reading about, drawing or writing m/m relationships and you can be a totally normal fan while doing this, but when you start carving an identity out of it I feel like that starts to become pretty weird and fetishizing just on its own (it would be creepy as fuck if a guy described himself as a "hardcore lesbian fanboy" and I find the whole "fujoshi" thing just as weird and offputting), and then when you add in a fanatical adherence to things like "BL hierarchy/rules" and shit (nothing like a pointless internet slapfight over how character A would never be a top/bottom because [insert character trait or appearance here that has literally nothing to do with what someone likes in the bedroom]) and I feel like the "gatekeepers" kind of have a point.

I know what you mean. I assumed OP was referring to the kind of gatekeeping that literally says "You shouldn't be writing slash unless you're a gay guy," as there's been an uptick in that lately.

Oh yeah no that's stupid. I understand the kneejerk reactive place a thought like that comes from, as a trans person seeing cis people bungle our portrayals over and over again definitely leaves me feeling like "ugh please stop" sometimes, but I also understand the solution isn't "stop writing about X group of people unless you're from X group", it's education and awareness and actually helping these writers, and having calm discussions about why certain prevalent trends are an issue.

On a tangential note, as much as the English-speaking fandom can get on my nerves sometimes, I have to say they're pretty good at internalizing and trying to do better with regards to LGBT issues. I also have one foot in Japanese fandom and Japanese fujoshi just Do. Not. Give. A. Shit. They basically think that BL is "their thing" and that they should have free reign to fetishize all they want. It's serious business in Japanese fandom too, like it's kind of hilarious from a Western POV at times because even if two people like the same pairing, say Character A and Character B together, if fujoshi 1 likes A/B and fujoshi 2 likes B/A, they'll often be like mortal enemies and there's a lot of infighting, all because they can't decide who exclusively puts their dick in who. The people who like "riba" (aka reversible/switch) are shunned by both sides lol.

Japanese fandom can sometimes make these sorts of issues in English fandom seem positively benign. :P

da.

i'm an asshole too then bc i think gay men in fandom have a point as well.

but slash/BL fandom at large doesn't want to hear it bc most of the ppl in it like to think they're above reproach, but as a lesbian some of the shit i have seen slash/BL fans say make my skin crawl bc it's the exact same kind of language that skeevy, fetishistic het guys have said to me[or i've seen said online] and like.. it's not better just bc it comes from a girl yanno? there are still gay men out there who are seeing what you're saying about them and they GET to be skeeved out by that.

that's not to say i don't think het women can't write m/m stories or porn, but maybe take actual gay men's feelings into consideration when talking about them? and maybe listen when they tell us what tropes/writing choices are homophobic to them?

but largely i think you're right, it's not regular 'i like this thing and it's fun' type fans who are the issue, it's the ones who've made liking slash/BL into some kind of identity so they're stuck unable to evaluate their behavior bc they consider that a personal attack.

tbh i think this is true of anyone who puts too much of their self-identity into a thing, any crit of it becomes insurmountable bc then that's crit of them. when to any normal person it isn't.

"but slash/BL fandom at large doesn't want to hear it bc most of the ppl in it like to think they're above reproach, but as a lesbian some of the shit i have seen slash/BL fans say make my skin crawl bc it's the exact same kind of language that skeevy, fetishistic het guys have said to me[or i've seen said online] and like.. it's not better just bc it comes from a girl yanno? there are still gay men out there who are seeing what you're saying about them and they GET to be skeeved out by that.

but largely i think you're right, it's not regular 'i like this thing and it's fun' type fans who are the issue, it's the ones who've made liking slash/BL into some kind of identity so they're stuck unable to evaluate their behavior bc they consider that a personal attack."

<---I think this hits the nail on the head. It seems like the people who most need to hear these criticisms are the ones who are deliberately closing themselves off to it because their entire fandom identity is centered around being a "crazy fujoshi fangirl uwu" and so any critique against the sometimes toxic themes that run through the genre and the fandom that spawns from the genre can feel like a direct attack on them.

Personally, just speaking from my own experiences in fandom, I think part of this stems from back a few years ago when there was an attempt to frame being a fujoshi as some kind of empowering feminist "embracing female sexuality" power inversion thing. The issue of course being that this wasn't women inverting the power structure on straight cis men, they were just literally the female version of the guy who gets off on reading lesbian superhero porn comics and they were doing the same exact thing to gay men, who aren't exactly at the top of the patriarchy pile and it's not "punching up" to fetishize them, especially when very often these types of people talk out of both sides of their mouth on the issue (I see a LOT of people do stuff like post their latest Voltron teenage smut picture and then like tweet two hours later about how guys watching lesbian porn is gross and creepy, that sort of thing).

"that's not to say i don't think het women can't write m/m stories or porn, but maybe take actual gay men's feelings into consideration when talking about them? and maybe listen when they tell us what tropes/writing choices are homophobic to them?"

This! There are so many awesome female m/m artists and writers who are incredible and they run the gamut from being LGBT themselves to being cis het, and the thing they all have in common is being chill and just essentially being "normal" fans. It's very possible to write predominantly or even exclusively m/m stuff while still not coming across as fetishizing. Being willing to listen and grow as a creator is probably the best way to participate in m/m fandoms without coming across as creepy or entitled IMO.

Unless the girls posting gay porn and talking about how hot it is are treating real gay men the same way (and 99.9% of them don't; that's a strawman from the early 00's) there's literally nothing wrong with finding fictional sex sexy even if it happens to be of two men and you're not a man. Same for men who read F/F porn. If they treat real lesbians and bi women normally it doesn't matter in the least if they jerk off to femslash.

This. I do not give a damn about people fantasizing and getting off on fictional characters having sex with other fictional characters, I care about how they treat real people. As long as they're tagging their stuff, staying in their lane, and leaving real people alone, they're doing nothing wrong.

Straight people are not staying in their lane and leaving real people alone. Relationship violence against bi people is a huge problem, as is harassment of gay/lesbian people.

No, liking fictional sex doesn't make one an abuser or harasser. It doesn't make one an ally either. And I've learned the hard way that straight people who are very forthcoming about how queer sex fantasies are hot to them often turn out to be chasers or unicorn hunters. That's not everyone, but it's enough to put me off relationships with straight people.

Not the group AYRT is talking about.

ds.

idk i'v got a particular bone to pick with so called 'allies' in fandom when they barge into our conversations, tell us what 'LGBT rep actually is' and completely ignore any and all talks about f/f 'bc that's not hot to us, ew'.

they don't have to be all-in with f/f, but ONLY accepting LGBT rep that they find 'hot' IS homophobic, and i see it far more than i'd like tbh.

I agree. On the one hand, I think "fujoshicourse" is way overblown. On the other hand, there's a bit of stereotyping and fetishism within m/m for straight women that's pretty darn creepy. I'm content to just not read it though.

I think "fujoshicourse" really depends on what sort of fandom you happen to be in at the moment. Fandoms like Voltron and Yuri On Ice!! for instance seemed like they had a literal mountain of fujoshi drama, whereas other fandoms seem to attract more lowkey fans and there isn't as much tolerance for certain behaviors, so depending on the fandom I think gay male fans probably feel varying levels of comfort? (I'm having a hard time wording what I want to say right, I apologize.)

I do think most people probably just ignore the stuff they don't like though lol, I know I certainly do. Fandom "discourse" takes a lot of mental energy to deal with and I think 99% of people just don't want to deal with it.

I agree on the different levels of comfort thing. I've given up on the project of reinterpreting straight characters through ship goggles and calling it representation or queerbaiting, depending on one's perspective. LGBTQ-friendly work has really exploded over the last decade, so I'd much rather read that than yet another argument that I should give Supernatural or Fantastic Beasts a go for its subtext.

I'm bi, and unfortunately have had bad relationships with straight women who bragged about liking slash and gay culture. I'm generally not inclined to trust that public shipping translates into private support when it really matters.

But, you're right that "discourse" is an energy sink, so I'm not inclined to scour the web for stuff I find sketchy and issue "callouts." I'd rather read great work from supportive publishers than rant about a person's fanwork.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #4525 ]

no subject

no subject

AYRT

no subject

AYRT

Re: AYRT

Re: AYRT

Re: AYRT

Re: AYRT

Re: AYRT

da

AYRT

Re: AYRT