fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #652 ]

[ SECRET POST #652 ]

⌈ Secret Post #652 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

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103.

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104.

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105.

[Bleach; Urahara/Yoruichi]

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106.

[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!; Hibari Kyoya]

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107.

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108.

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109.

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110.

[Tokyo Babylon]

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111.

[Tenga Toppa Gurren Lagann; Viral]

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112.

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113.

[Adventures of Sonic]

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114.

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115.

[Jem and the Holograms]

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116.

[Ouran HS Host Club]

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117.

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118.

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119.

[Guild Wars]

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120.

[Doctor Who]

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121.

[Taiga Aisaka from ToraDora]

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122.

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123.

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124.

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125.

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126.

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127.

[Ouran HS Host Club]

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128.

[Mr. Driller]

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129.

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130.

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131.

[Vic Migngongsognsognfonsogwhatevera]

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132.

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133.

[Metal Gear Solid; Phoenix Wright]

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134.

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135.

[QI, Alen Davies]

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136.

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137.

[Captain Planet/Poison Ivy]

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138.

[Kuroshitsuji]

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139.

[Jack Sparrow/The Doctor]

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140.

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141.

[Whose Line is it Anyway?; Ryan Stiles]

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142.

[Vlogbrothers/Tetris]

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143.

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144.

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145.

[Avatar]

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146.

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147.

[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!; Superbi Squalo]

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148.

[Harry Potter; Snape/Harry]

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149.

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150.

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151.

[Stargate Atlantis]

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152.

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153.

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154.

[Metal Gear Solid 5: Return of the Brotheeerrrrrrr]

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155.

[South Park; Cartman]

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156.

[Liar Game]

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157.

[South Park/Indiana Jones?]

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158.

[The Office]

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159.

[Bleach, Naruto, Death Note]

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160.

[Fullmetal Alchemist]

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161.

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162.

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163.

[Final Fantasy XIII]

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164.

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165.

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166.

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167.

Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/

Secrets Left to Post: 18 pages, 443 secrets from Secret Submission Post #094.
Secrets Not Posted: [ <0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 3 - etc ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

106: Hibari is very interesting, but he's probably one of the most damaged people in the series...

110: It's a compelling story, but once you realize that Subaru isn't actually in love with Seishirou but only believes he is, and that the person he believes himself to be in love with is just a construct that Seishirou invented, you can enjoy the twisted psychology for what it is!

148: Because they have a cool Snape, and nobody cares about Harry in any other capacity than to make Snape look good. It's the same in the Harry/Draco parts of the fandom. /bitter

TB1: Who is that? He's very pretty (and I have that same, apparently weird, nose, heh).

Damaged? In what way? I think Hibari has a very bizarre way of looking at the world, but he makes it work. He has his own rules, but since he actually appears to be doing quite well for himself, it's hard to say how his life might be unhealthy, especially compared to some of the walking disasters in that series.

Er, because he can't care for other people? It's sort of a big hint, I think. Also, his complete inability to be in the same room as more than three or four people without resorting to violence, his habit of inflicting exaggerated violence on people for the slightest thing, his distance to everything... even Mukuro is healthier, and that's saying something! Also, if you count image songs as canon, he is of the opinion that smiles and tears are only for weaklings, and he doesn't know how to love, or what love is, and he warns people from becoming close to him.

If the only joy a character can feel is the joy of inflicting damage on another, then yes, I think he's rather damaged.

That said, he's probably my favourite character. I'm fervently hoping for a character arc for him.

What I'm trying to say is, rather than deciding from the get-go that Hibari is a damaged individual because he doesn't exactly fit the traditional idea of emotional health, one could choose to place him in a class by himself. Hibari is, in many ways, a quintessential non-conformist, which leads the way for a funny contradiction because his character is built on this caricature of a rigid rule-enforcer. Much of his violent personality is exaggerated for humorous effect, and the rest of it can be pinned on the fact that 15-year-old Hibari is an immature brat.

His older self is just as dangerous, but colder and more calculating -- and as much as his constant aloofness is integral to his character, I would argue that continuing to associate with people he's known since middle school indicates an ability to connect to others on some level. In this case, I think it's the, "I choose my own crew to run with and it works for me so I don't care what you think," level. Sure, it's a very my-way-or-the-highway lifestyle, one known for attracting loneliness, but have we ever been presented with any evidence that this hinders Hibari in any way -- or, indeed, if loneliness is even an issue for him? In fact, I think it's a mark of leadership.

It's all about how you look at things. Hibari finds joy in establishing his dominance and overcoming increasingly powerful opponents. He has his group, his bird, his hometown, and those Vongola fools if he wants them -- what's to say that he wants for anything more? For me, Hibari's character is interesting because he could easily be viewed as an argument for looking at the world from an unique perspective and valuing your personal convictions above all else. When you take away all the ridiculousness of the series, his strong individualism might be something a person could learn from rather than condemn.

Now whether or not he's capable of love, that's a whole other debate.

Dude, I don't want to change his entire character, nor do I think everything he does is wrong. But the violence as a response to everything, and his emotional frigidity is neither healthy or something that makes him stronger.

His non-conformity and independence are good things, but his emotional problems adds a certain depth, a mystery, a history to make him develop from, and therefore make him more interesting.

I would argue that continuing to associate with people he's known since middle school indicates an ability to connect to others on some level.

Yes, I believe he does, too. It's just that he refuses to believe it himself. He's better ten years later (though I suspect it's a world that won't come to pass when the arc is finished), and that has made him even stronger; he's become more composed, and developed a tenuous bond with Tsuna (and maybe others).

Hibari finds joy in establishing his dominance and overcoming increasingly powerful opponents.

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's his violence towards the weak, his disgust for feelings of any kind, and the overall extremities to which he will go in that violence and disgust that's worrisome. He's unbalanced and disconnected from the world.

Now whether or not he's capable of love, that's a whole other debate.

No, it's actually the whole foundation of my opinion that he's damaged. His inability to understand what love is, is the root of all his other problems, I think.

When you take away all the ridiculousness of the series

This is interesting, because while I think the series has its ridiculous moments, I don't think everything can be explained away with it being comic relief. Point of fact: Tsuna. I think his low self-esteem is a direct result of terrible parenting, even though every family situation is shown in a humorous light. The cruelty Reborn treats him with in the beginning is, while slightly disturbing, necessary. If Tsuna hadn't been forced, he would simply have retreated into his complete conviction of his own uselessness. KHR has some very interesting themes, if you know how to look.

Well, if I didn't think KHR had worthwhile themes, you'd have to wonder why I'd even bother talking about this matter at length. I'm not trying to argue the point that everything unusual about Hibari's character can be chalked up to the author's tendency to blow things out of proportion. I think some part of it can be attributed to the humor, and to the manga's "shounen-ness". But to talk about Hibari's emotional problems, that's an issue of characterization. There's always room for disagreement in characterization.

What I want to suggest is that, rather than judging a character's spiritual health by the state of their relationships, we could look at whether or not the presence or absence of said attachments impedes the character's ability to live their life and achieve their goals in any way. For Hibari, I don't believe this to be the case. As close as he is to a plank of wood emotion-wise, the kid can get along just fine doing whatever he chooses to do. What makes him interesting is seeing how this unique personality can add to the Family, while not losing its individuality. In return, the Family will influence him in subtler ways. He doesn't necessarily have to be emotionally damaged for this to work.

When we run into someone who practices detachment philosophy, there's the urge to try and "figure them out", find out what their problem is and what terrible things led them to be this way. But is this kind of psychoanalysis appropriate if the person in question made the conscious choice to be this way, simply because they believe it is the right choice? Wouldn't that just be taking our own standards and imposing them on another person?

Hibari, as someone who possesses a strong, intensely ego-centric moral code, might be one of these people -- though ultimately, I don't think we really know what it is that he believes. It's hard to say that he himself doesn't believe in his ability to form attachments, since Hibari has shown that he can easily say one thing to people's faces while doing something else entirely. I could infer that he's probably aware of his various "bonds" (tenuous as they are), but isn't particularly verbal about it -- who would expect otherwise? Here, I am mostly talking about the older version, as I believe that the teenage Hibari's "personality deficiency" has to do with his immense immaturity. As a youth, he bullies his peers (but still shows a preference for strong opponents), and as an adult, he's completely intolerant of weakness. That seems like reasonable development, given his personality. I don't think it's terribly unusual for a man's words to belie his actions when it comes to "showing that he cares". Actions over words seems pretty fitting for this character.

Regarding Hibari's capacity for love, the real issue is that we haven't been shown many situations to which this is applicable. By love, are we talking then about some basic ability to form meaningful emotional attachment to people and things? I'm not really sure what it is about this image song that's supposed to prove he doesn't understand love -- but for the sake of argument, let's say he doesn't. Does that mean he's incapable of it? Worst case scenario, his capacity for love is tiny and he can only tolerate people rather than allow himself to acknowledge them; it's likelier that it's another example of his tendency to say things that contradict his actions to avoid appearing weak.

To be capable of emotional connection, one has to allow oneself to need others. While it's difficult to imagine Hibari needing others very often, it's at least a positive sign that in one future, one possibility of him can cooperate with others and display respect for another person (namely Tsuna), while still maintaining his fierce independence.

In the end, though, everything remains pure conjecture. The character could go either way -- victim of traumatic soul-destroying experiences or radical proponent of bizarre world view, both are still on the table. I also look forward to a Hibari-centric arc to shed light on this matter. Personally, I don't think Hibari's on a bad track. What I want to see for his character is how he will be developed, not how he should be justified.

rather than judging a character's spiritual health by the state of their relationships, we could look at whether or not the presence or absence of said attachments impedes the character's ability to live their life and achieve their goals in any way.

When it comes to a fictional character whose state of mind we're not privy to, judging his behaviour in relation to the other characters is pretty much all we have to go on, though, isn't it? Also, if he's emotionally damaged, who is to say that his goals aren't skewed?

When we run into someone who practices detachment philosophy

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. That Hibari is cutting himself from all human contact isn't healthy because humans need emotional bonds to function. That he might choose to spend most of his time on his own is not a problem, but how he handles relationships when he does interact with other people is.

is this kind of psychoanalysis appropriate if the person in question made the conscious choice to be this way, simply because they believe it is the right choice?

Yes. Just because a character is convinced he's right, it doesn't mean that it's true. This is a basic meta tool. Is the character a reliable narrator? How does his mental state influence his choices? What is his inner and outer conflicts? All these things determines his growth throughout the series. Generally the author leaves clues that can be interpreted.

could infer that he's probably aware of his various "bonds"

Really? I'm pretty convinced that he isn't. His rationalizations seems to be both for himself and his surroundings. If I would guess, I'd say that a story arc for him would involve the realization of the value of emotion.

I'm not really sure what it is about this image song that's supposed to prove he doesn't understand love

The name of the song is "Lonely fate" (Hitoribochi no sadame), and part of the lyrics are:

"Something like love, I don't know what it is
I don't know how to love
An eternal lonely fate"

I'd say he sounds a bit regretful.

Does that mean he's incapable of it?

No, and that's pretty much my point; he needs to learn how to do it. And I don't mean in the style of American sentimental melodrama; that's not the only way. As things are, he's incapable, because he thinks it would make him weak, and that only weaklings let their emotions mean something.

I don't think Hibari's on a bad track.

Well, definitely not. It's already apparent that his connection to Tsuna has influenced him, so I'm only expecting more development.

Interestingly, there's a part of the character song that goes:

"You held out a trembling hand
You're satisfied with this, aren't you?
Now, get out of my sight
If you don't, you'll get hurt"

I think it's about Tsuna, and the fact that he warns him and says "you'll get hurt" (and it can mean both feelings and bodily injuries), not "I will hurt you" implies a chink in his armour.

What I want to see for his character is how he will be developed, not how he should be justified.

Yes, that's what I'm saying; a static character is not very interesting. Its' when he grows and changes that we get to know him.

kiro from cinema bizarre
fuck yes he's pretty. :)

He isn't. Just because he doesn't feel emotions the way most people do doesn't make him damaged. I think the person above argued about it much more succintly than I would. Plus I think you have your fixed opinion of him and I don't think I can change it, and you can't change mine, so I won't try.

Hibari does things his own way, and is always himself, no compromise. It is THAT I am so attracted to, because I want to not care and just be myself. He inspired me to do that. And honestly? I am a better person for it.

Just because he doesn't feel emotions the way most people do doesn't make him damaged.

Just inhuman, then?

Joking aside, I have to wonder at this fervour to make Hibari less nuanced.

Hibari does things his own way, and is always himself, no compromise.

Yes, and as I said above, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that part of him. I love those things about him too! That doesn't mean that he hasn't got problems in other areas of his personality. Like, for example, his inability to care for other people, and violence being the answer to every single thing that upsets him.

A character with no flaws, with nowhere to develop, isn't very interesting.

-shrugs- You insisted.

Mm, I'm sorry t say but I actually laughed at you for that. Because it's all of the people who say that he's emotionally damaged that makes him less nuanced. It's slapping a label on him without understanding who he really is. It's extremely demeaning to the character. Because Hibari isn't damaged - damaged implies that he used to be able to feel emotions 'normally' and then went through some sort of trauma. I'm sorry, I don't subscribe to that theory. He's different.

He feels emotions and understands them differently from other people. He's not damaged - he's immature. In canon, he's a fifteen year old kid who lived his entire life dislike human interaction. He disregards affection and love and all of that as something that weakens people, and honestly, the world gives him plenty of evidence for his beliefs. It's through dependence that people grow complacent - "If I fall, there'll be my friends to catch me." Hibari, fundamentally, is a boy, a man, with a will and a resolve so strong that he absolutely refuses to conform to society's idea of emotional health and wellbeing, which is what you're actually doing. It goes against his entire character.

He's perfectly healthy - he functions perfectly fine. He's not having emotional breakdowns - actually since this is Hibari Kyouya, he never actually would. And he doesn't care for people? I raise you Kusakabe Tetsuya, and Hibird, and Namimori the entire town. Hibari can care for people, for animals, for things. He just doesn't see most of them as being worth the while, because they are all so fucking weak by his definition.

Also, just because he likes fighting, likes violence, and is aggressive as heck doesn't mean that he's damaged. It just means that he's really violent and is an adrenaline junkie. Dude, he doesn't even needs to be upset to fight. He fights at every single thing, because fighting is what he loves to do. Which is why I laugh at that he's emotionally damaged, really, because he can feel such a spectrum of emotions when fighting - excitement, anticipation, the sheer rush of it, the fierce joy in fighting... you can see it in his face every single time he fights. This boy has no problems with emotions at all.

It's just that people aren't worth the time.

I'm not saying he doesn't have flaws. He's immature in Present Day. He's impulsive as all fuck and kinda stupid sometimes (see: Mukuro; see: Genkishi). He's really far, far from perfect but I've never said he is. You simply assumed, and assumptions make for an lousy argument. So does building up a straw man by twisting by words.

(I don't mince my words in debates. I used to, but I don't, now. It's just part of who I am. If you choose to be offended, it's your choice. I'm blunt.)

It's slapping a label on him without understanding who he really is.

No, it's saying that his actions have some reasons that them stems from certain mechanics in his psychology that aren't healthy.

"Damaged" is not a psychological diagnosis, it's just a general statement that means he's got some psychological and/or emotional problems.

He's not damaged - he's immature.

It's possible to be both at the same time, though.

It's through dependence that people grow complacent - "If I fall, there'll be my friends to catch me."

Dependence is not the same as love or affection, though. Nor is it the same as trust.

In canon, he's a fifteen year old kid who lived his entire life dislike human interaction.

Actually, we don't know what his life was like before Tsuna knew about him.

he absolutely refuses to conform to society's idea of emotional health and wellbeing, which is what you're actually doing.

"Society's idea"? Not being able to feel love and empathy for other people is actually a rather serious condition. It's two of the things that makes us human. The way Hibari dehumanizes other people, making them lesser beings in his mind and words is both fascinating and horrible at the same time, and I want to know why he's doing it.

he functions perfectly fine.

Which is why he hits even people that he knows for no other reason than that they're in the same room, he keeps a school he has left in fear (and abuses both his power and the students when he feels like it), beats down random people for fun, and make people give him money for "protection"?

I raise you Kusakabe Tetsuya

You'd say he actually cares about him? What makes you think that? To me it seems he's just using Kusakabe as a tool, and sees it as his right to do so.

Hibird is an animal, and I find it very interesting that Hibari tamed it; generally people with emotional problems have an easier time connecting with animals, as they demand nothing.

Hibari cares for the place Namimori, but he has no problems with beating the people there bloody if he thinks they disturb the peace.

Also, just because he likes fighting, likes violence, and is aggressive as heck doesn't mean that he's damaged.

No, it doesn't (as I've said before). The way he goes about it, however, is a clear sign. He goes too far, among other things (I'm talking about when he fights people much weaker than him, not the superpowered Mafia).

He fights at every single thing,

Even if they don't want to fight him, which is a problem.

he can feel such a spectrum of emotions when fighting - excitement, anticipation, the sheer rush of it,

He can't seem to feel any of it in any other situation, though. Why is that? Aren't you curious?

When I like a character this much, I want to really know him, to understand him. That's why I'm asking questions and analysing. That's why I'm hungrily scanning for clues in every new chapter. I don't have a clear image of exactly what Hibari "truly" is, I'm looking at what we've got in canon and thinking about it.

And his inability to love is such a big point of his character that his entire image song is about it. I mean, really.

You simply assumed

No, I looked at the canon and saw that Hibari's lack of empathy and caring is quite obvious. There are rather a lot of examples of it.

If you choose to be offended, it's your choice. I'm blunt.

I don't mind bluntness at all. In fact, I prefer it. You've avoided ad hominem attacks, which is really the only hindrance to any discussion that I can see. I'm pretty much never offended or upset in these sort of discussions (imagine me mostly in a calm, but occasionally excited, and always reasonable voice - that's generally what I'm like.). No need to worry!

All I'm saying is this:
1) Please reread what I wrote. You misunderstood me entirely.
2) You're not actually rebutting any of your points with evidence. It's just. again, assumptions and claims. Stop doing that, it makes for a bad discussion.
3) Actually try rebutting my points instead of dismissing them.

1: What did you mean, then? Please clarify.

2: Which ones, specifically?

3: Er, what?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #652 ]

106, 110, 148, TB1

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TB1

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