fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5012 ]

[ SECRET POST #5012 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5012 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Warhammer 40,000]

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[INMOST]

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06. [SPOILERS for Mulan (2020)]

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07. [WARNING for discussion of antisemitism]

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07. [WARNING for discussion of child molestation/sexual assault]

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09. [WARNING for discussion of sexual harassment]

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10. [WARNING for discussion of abuse]

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11. [WARNING for discussion of abuse]

[FAITH, The Council]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #717.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I assume that the Holocaust a/b/o porn is fictional. I guess OP doesn't say whether it's RPF or whether it's an AU for characters from some other fictional work, but either way, the story OP is talking about is still fictional - it's fiction *about* real people and real suffering, but it's still fictional.

It's original fic, not fanfic. The characters are original to that story.

Not sure if this makes it better or worse, but Nazi porn has been a thing for decades. This isn't some uniquely depraved thing fandom came up with, it's a popular subgenre. There are also Nazi romance books (widely criticized nowadays, rightly so).

DA

If it's an original story, then how is this fandom related?

It was posted on AO3.

So?

I was answering your question about what the connection to fandom is. Stuff posted on AO3 is at least fandom-adjacent by definition.

It doesn't matter if the characters are fictional in the Holocaust fic, the setting you are writing to capture wasn't and was a scene of a crime against humanity. It's so disrespectful to everyone who died there.

At this point I can only think you're a troll.

I am not trolling. I agree that there are good arguments in favor of considering this kind of fic unacceptable. But I also think that attitude is absolutely contradictory to the commitment to YKINMK that a lot of people around here espouse, and the way that people give out about how people who want to ban fanfiction are awful and how restrictive modern fandom culture and all the rest of it. And it bugs me.

I'm one of of the YKINMK people, and my stance is consistent. I think it's disgusting, and I ALSO think it should be allowed to exist. The existence of things that I consider horrible and disgusting is a price I pay for things I like (that some OTHER people might consider horrible and disgusting) also getting to exist. It's worth it.

IAWTC

Very well put.

I haven't yet seen anyone claim that the person who wrote the Holocaust fic should be doxed, or banned, or arrested, or anything other than criticized for writing Holocaust porn. You seem to be deeply, and some would say deliberately, misunderstanding both what antis want and what YKINMK, as it applies to fanworks, actually means. If you're not a troll, you're doing a fine troll impression.

Many antis DO think works they don't like should be forcibly deleted from AO3 against the author's will though. I am 100% against that.

nayrt

uh, I think you're misunderstanding what exactly an anti is... antis are defined by their crowing for "gross fiction" to be wiped from existence by any means necessary, including harassing people (and attempted murder, if you remember stories like a fanartist at a con receiving cookies with needles in them)

Well, I think that kind of distinction - "when I talk about anti, I specifically and exclusively mean people who are in favor of doxxing, banning, and arresting" - is not really tenable in practice.

And while you might think that vociferous criticism is consistent with YKINMK, I don't know if that's something people believe across the board. People certainly seem to have a problem with vociferous criticism of the morality of age gap fic, for instance, even when it doesn't involve doxxing, banning, or arresting.

DA

Depends on what you perceive to be YKINMK. There's a big difference between people who believe "your kink is not my kink and that's okay with me" and "your kink is not everyone's kink and that should be okay with everyone"

YKINMK is the former. You seem to speak of it as the latter for some reason.

My problem is with critics who don't think their own criticism is ITSELF open to criticism. Criticism isn't magic. The author has every right to just flat-out disagree with it, and to fight back if it gets nasty. Some people see that as an attempt to shut down criticism. No, it isn't. It's disagreement, not silencing.

"I think your age gap ship is disgusting."

"Too bad. That's not my problem." <-- perfectly fair and legitimate response.

Why not when the things that specifically separate the newer anti culture from block-and-move-on is the creation of social media accounts specifically dedicated to naming and shaming people who ship it?

SA: and antis distance themselves from block-and-move-on.

+1

Some act like block-and-move-on is some kind of abdication of responsibility, as if there's a "duty" of some sort to call out the ickiness.

But at that point you've already broadened the category immeasurably! That seems like it makes my point that in practice, it's difficult to stick to the very restrictive definition of antis as exclusively people who are in favor of doxxing or arresting.

And not only that, but "people who distance themselves from block-and-move-on" *also includes the people ITT who want to criticize Holocaust porn instead of blocking and moving on*. So in the context of the broader discussion, it seems like another example of the contradiction between talking about how good YKINMK is and how bad antis are on the one hand, while at the same time feeling free to criticize fic that you yourself dislike.

You sound like you're really having trouble understanding this point.

YKINMK does NOT mean "no criticism allowed ever." It never has and never will. Sometimes YKINMK folks DO criticize things. It's not hypocritical because YKINMK is not anti-criticism, only anti-censorship.

What it DOES mean is that authors are not required to cave to that criticism. They are allowed to disagree with it and keep on with their thing. That is not "silencing" or "shutting down" criticism, it's just rejecting it.

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And while you might think that vociferous criticism is consistent with YKINMK, I don't know if that's something people believe across the board.

You're right and you should say it. I don't even know which side I'm on in this argument, but the AYRT is moving the goal posts with this one and it's BS.

Hmmm.

Well I guess on the scale of anti to YKINMK, I fall one notch short of full blown YKINMK. There are a few themes that unsettle me - specifically vore, snuff, and anything involving children.

The problem is my main fandom fare is two incest pairings. It took me a long time to figure out why, but there are several things about the dynamic that work for me like the intrinsic shame, and the emotional struggle. I would be absolutely horrified by it in real life.

So you see it's difficult for me to claim that everyone who writes extremely dark stuff is categorically sick in the head.

BUT I started in fandom in the nineties, where the majority of fandom was women enjoying exploring their sexuality.

These days the fandom scape is very different, and the dark side of the Internet is much bigger and more horrific. And I think the Anti movement has arisen in response to that.

But the anti movement does not allow for the exploration of human nature and so makes people who have kinks that fall outside the narrow lines antis draw feel as if their freedoms at risk of being oppressed. And so you have YKINMK.

I don’t really think either side is 100% right.

I think this is a really reasonable point of view!

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