Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-01-03 04:56 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-01-03 04:56 pm
[ SECRET POST #729 ]
⌈ Secret Post #729 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Doctor Why]
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[Hetalia]
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[Failure to Launch]
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[Megaman]
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[Stargate Atlantis]
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[Death Note, here we go again]
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[Star Trek: DS9; Odo/Kira Nerys]
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[Revolutionary Girl Utena]
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[Supernatural]
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[A Christmas Story]
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[CLAMP]
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[TVXQ: Micky Yoochun & Xiah Junsu]
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[Blackpool]
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[Junjou Romantica]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 459 secrets from Secret Submission Post #105.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 12:10 am (UTC)(link)If they don't apply to either an individual nor the group as a whole, how can they be based on truth? Maybe you mean that since, for example, there are black criminals, it's totally okay to assume that all black people are criminals. Does this logic only apply to jokes, or can we use it in the real world, too? Is racial profiling acceptable? It's based on the same logic you're using right here.
I'm hardly the most PC person in the world, but no one that I have met tells uncouth jokes because they actually believe that black people are gonna steal their cars or something
Really? Because I've met a lot of white people who assume that all black people are stupid, lazy, poor criminals. Maybe these people never make racist jokes.
And, guess what? Even if they don't really meant it, it's still hurtful. If you say something offensive, it's going to hurt me even if you're a totally good person, who's only laughing because you're not racist.
Because if you really look at race jokes, the real punchline isn't "oh those wacky colored peoples" but rather your internal reaction of "HAHA OH WOW I CAN'T BELIEVE SOMEONE MADE THIS JOKE".
You're kidding, right? Please tell me you don't actually believe this.
I can see how people would get offended by race jokes, but I also think that the weight of their importance on internal beliefs are overstated. I myself find them funny, much like how I find Holocaust and dead baby jokes funny. But that isn't to say that I think the Holocaust or killing babies is okay.
So you see how people could get offended, but they should shut the hell up because you think those jokes are hilarious? Your compassion is overwhelming.
Re: 133 addendum
Really? Because I've met a lot of white people who assume that all black people are stupid, lazy, poor criminals. Maybe these people never make racist jokes.
So these socially backwards individuals ruin race jokes for everyone? I make fun of my own race in close company with socially progressive friends who similarly find these jokes hilarious. Are we not allowed to do this because there are legitimate racists in Mississippi or something? Sure, the song is overstating when it says "Don't take them as personal attacks" because, sure, some people do mean it. But not everyone does, and it's unfair to lump us all in the category of "racists".
If you say something offensive, it's going to hurt me even if you're a totally good person, who's only laughing because you're not racist.
Well, obviously, I wouldn't be telling such jokes in your company. Appropriate un-PC jokes for appropriately un-PC company. And if the very fact that people exist who do tell these jokes in an ironic manner bother you, well...sorry. *shrug*
You're kidding, right? Please tell me you don't actually believe this.
It is for me. It is for many people. It isn't for everyone.
So you see how people could get offended, but they should shut the hell up because you think those jokes are hilarious?
No, I see how some people can be offended, but I can also see how some people can find them hilarious(ly and blatantly untruthful). I never said that people should shut the hell up when confronted with racial stereotypes that offend them. But I do think that a bigger fuss is raised about race jokes than they really deserve. If you want to change race relations, go change institutional, educational, and health structures that are inherently unfair and unrepresentative toward minorities and the underclass. There's bigger, more effective fish to fry.
But really, my point is that the song is mostly true. We all hold racial preconceptions. Some of us tell race jokes. Some of us don't find them funny. Some of us do. But not all of us who do are racists. Perhaps a bad choice of venue for telling such jokes, but such jokes aren't meant to offend you, even if they do. Misunderstandings happen. It's not the end of the world.
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 01:36 am (UTC)(link)To be honest, I'm still confused. How can something be based in truth, but not truthful?
So these socially backwards individuals ruin race jokes for everyone?
Well, I can't speak for everybody, but they've certainly ruined them for me. I'm not comfortable with ethnic jokes because, unless I know the person really well, it's impossible for me to tell if the person telling them is being ironic or not.
Sure, the song is overstating when it says "Don't take them as personal attacks" because, sure, some people do mean it.
But that's the thing -- I can't dissemble that easily. When you say, "all black people do X," you are talking about me. Whether or not you believe it's true is irrelevant. You've made a comment about my behavior, personality, background and abilities. Maybe some people can depersonalize that easily, but I can't.
Well, obviously, I wouldn't be telling such jokes in your company. Appropriate un-PC jokes for appropriately un-PC company.
But, if people aren't allowed to say if something offends them, how are you going to figure out who the appropriate company would be?
Potentially revealing story ahead: During my first year of college, there was a guy who I hung out with occasionally who made racist jokes. Usually about Puerto Ricans, but some other ethnic groups made their way in there, too. He would always look for my reaction, which made me even more uncomfortable than the jokes themselves. (In case you want a joke for later, here's one of the ones I remember best: What's black and white and red all over? A Puerto Rican after a drive-by!) I wasn't sure what to say, since I was the only non-white person there and didn't want people to think that I was some sort of hyper-activist. Later, I began to wonder if the reason he looked at me so closely was so that, if anyone said something about his jokes, he could say that his black friend thought it was funny.
Of course, he was wrong. I didn't think his jokes were funny... I just wasn't willing to make a big deal about it. How do you know that your friends don't feel the same way?
It is for me. It is for many people. It isn't for everyone.
See, I could buy that a small number of people tell racist jokes ironically. What I don't believe is that most people tell them ironically.
I never said that people should shut the hell up when confronted with racial stereotypes that offend them.
Yes, but I think that's the point of the song which is what we were discussing in the first place.
I never said that people should shut the hell up when confronted with racial stereotypes that offend them. But I do think that a bigger fuss is raised about race jokes than they really deserve.
This is another area in which we disagree. I feel like people make too big a fuss defending them. If you're doing something you know is offensive, you can't complain when people are offended. And while that may not be what you're saying, I do think that's the whole point of the song.
If you want to change race relations, go change institutional, educational, and health structures that are inherently unfair and unrepresentative toward minorities and the underclass.
Or I could do both.
Perhaps a bad choice of venue for telling such jokes, but such jokes aren't meant to offend you, even if they do. Misunderstandings happen. It's not the end of the world.
Sure, but you can complain about racist jokes and remarks without making it out to be the apocalypse. I have the right to express my opinions. "This offends me" =/= "you're a horrible evil person" and if someone can't understand that, then that's their problem.
Re: 133 addendum
You take facts and then you extrapolate conclusions from those facts. However, you can easily overextend your claims. Based in truth but not truthful. For example, African-Americans in the US have a higher crime rate than many other races. This is fact. However, if one is not careful, one can easily extrapolate that to conclude "being black means that you are more likely to commit crimes", which is not a straight-up lie but is incredibly disingenuous and completely ignores socioeconomic and educational factors, as well as a whole bevy of other considerations. Such a statement would make a sociologist cry.
But, if people aren't allowed to say if something offends them, how are you going to figure out who the appropriate company would be?
Well, obviously, race jokes aren't something you're going to be introducing yourself with. =P You get to know a person's character first, and then you judge what type of conversation is appropriate with that person.
How do you know that your friends don't feel the same way?
Because all of us share jokes like that. It's not like I'm the only insensitive jackass of my friend group. =P If you're curious, it went like this: un-PC personality and sense of humor --> discussing/joking about how the entire concept of race is flawed (it is, and highly so) --> joking about own self's race --> admitting that we find race jokes funny (if profoundly disingenuous) --> telling race jokes --> laughter --> more race jokes, and it goes round. So it's not like it was "Hi, nice to meet you. Btw, [race joke] hahahaha." Thanks for sharing your story, though, especially with a random stranger with whom you've been arguing.
What I don't believe is that most people tell them ironically.
I'm not sure how the numbers break down, but regardless, I (IMO) don't think that you can tell everyone to stop telling race jokes because they categorically make you a racist when there are at least some of us to whom that doesn't apply.
Yes, but I think that's the point of the song which is what we were discussing in the first place.
I thought the moral was that a little bit of racism (rather, deliberate and non-deliberate cultural insensitivity) is in all of us and that we shouldn't take it so personally all the time, especially given how many people don't mean it. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't do something about it if it really offends you, but it's something to think about, lest you extend your distaste for their humor into something more serious like charging them with racism.
"This offends me" =/= "you're a horrible evil person"
Well, your original post ("This fucking musical and everyone who likes can all go fuck themselves.") seems to suggest otherwise, which was largely why I responded in the first place. It did seem that you were saying that "if you like this song, you're a terrible racist".
Overall, we differ drastically in our interpretation of the song and in our ability to depersonalize admittedly offensive humor. And that's okay because LOL OPINIONS. I can easily understand why you'd take offense at such jokes, and I hope you can see why some people don't think much of them in appropriate contexts/company. We're not going to change each other's minds, but I hope that we can at least understand where each of us is coming from. And I hope that if I should ever meet you in real life, I won't tell a race joke. =P
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 04:27 am (UTC)(link)Do you think that this applies to every single negative stereotype? Are there grounds for believing that all black people are stupid/Latinos are lazy/Jews are greedy etc etc?
'm not sure how the numbers break down, but regardless, I (IMO) don't think that you can tell everyone to stop telling race jokes because they categorically make you a racist when there are at least some of us to whom that doesn't apply.
When did I tell you (or anyone for that matter) that they aren't allowed to tell racist jokes? All I'm saying is that, just as you have the right to say any stupid, offensive thing that pops into your mind, I have the right to tell you that what you said was stupid and offensive.
I thought the moral was that a little bit of racism (rather, deliberate and non-deliberate cultural insensitivity) is in all of us and that we shouldn't take it so personally all the time, especially given how many people don't mean it.
While I see it as: "Everybody's racist. Since everybody's racist no one can ever criticize my racist behavior without being a hypocrite. So I can say whatever I want without any consequences! If anyone gets upset they're just over-reacting and should calm down."
No one has the right to tell me what I'm allowed to find offensive and I have every right to speak up if someone does offend me. The whole point of the song is that I don't have that right. I don't respond well to being told to shut up, especially if the person is calling me a hypocrit in the process.
Well, your original post ("This fucking musical and everyone who likes can all go fuck themselves.") seems to suggest otherwise, which was largely why I responded in the first place. It did seem that you were saying that "if you like this song, you're a terrible racist".
I wasn't upset because they were making racist jokes. What bothered me was how they were trying to justify it. All that anti-PC bullshit does bother me, but I've learned to ignore it. But I've yet to develop defences against people telling me that it's morally wrong for me to say if they've done something to offend me.
I'd also like to point out that the song isn't just talking about racist jokes. The problem started when Princeton assumed that all monsters were related, which is a pretty standard racist assumption. Kate isn't allowed to be upset by this, however, because she is funding a school for monsters and is therefore just as racist as he is. The song really should be a space on that How to Suppress Discussions of Racism bingo card.
I can easily understand why you'd take offense at such jokes, and I hope you can see why some people don't think much of them in appropriate contexts/company. We're not going to change each other's minds, but I hope that we can at least understand where each of us is coming from.
And I can understand your perspective as well. If you've only heard ethnic jokes in an ironic, affectionate context, you'd have a very differnet perspective than someone with more negative experiences. It's all a very subjective issue. I do hope that you understand that I don't think that using ethnic humor makes you a bad person, or even a horrible racist. My issues with this song are more about the justifications for using racist jokes, rather than the jokes themselves.
Re: 133 addendum
It doesn't even matter. The fact of the matter is that people at some point believed it to be fact or based in fact, and over time such stereotypes become more conflated. The bottom line is that stereotypes are (outside of a scientific context) never wholly truthful.
All I'm saying is that, just as you have the right to say any stupid, offensive thing that pops into your mind, I have the right to tell you that what you said was stupid and offensive.
I don't disagree with that. My point is that while it is within your right to be offended, it is not a moral obligation unto me as a human being to also feel offended.
The whole point of the song is that I don't have that right [to be offended]
Once again, we differ on the interpretation of the song, as I see it more about expecting people to accept your moral compass and adjust their behaviors accordingly. As I've said before, you have every right to be offended. However, I don't think that it's right to expect conformation of behavior from others. To be quite frank, you have the right to be offended, and everyone else has the right to not care and to not change a damn thing. And it doesn't make them a racist (IMO).
It's all a very subjective issue.
And I think that's the crux of it. We all have different experiences; we all have different moral compasses; we all have different senses of humor. I don't expect everyone to think like me, but I do expect people to realize that there are people out there who do think like me.
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 02:22 pm (UTC)(link)For the person of colour who hears the joke that means they may give you the benefit of the doubt, but they're also aware of your voice contributing to a culture that normalises negative prejudices and wraps them up as 'humour' as a preventative against allowing them the option of response. (Cause nobody wants to be a killjoy, right?)
The other thing - which creeps me the hell out and would be reason enough to stop me ever telling a racist joke even if I didn't already think such humour was never worth it - is the fact that you can't ever be 100% sure your audience are all listening ironically. Take a group of five people who enjoy sharing "ironic" racist humour. Now add a sixth. He tells the same jokes, he laughs the same way, he meshes with the group really well. The difference is, he genuinely hates people of colour and believes every prejudiced stereotype, and you know what? He thinks the others are all on his side.
Re: 133 addendum
But then you point out that race jokes carry a high risk of offending people, in which case I respond that I'm going to take that risk in appropriate company. They make me laugh, and I want to honestly share my humor, so if I don't have to censor myself, I won't. As with all things friend-related, it's a small leap of faith. I believe I know my friends. I believe that they will find it funny. And I believe that if they don't, they'll make their displeasure known. If these things don't happen, then there's something wrong with the friendship itself.