[ SECRET POST #5161 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5161 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 39 secrets from Secret Submission Post #739.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Not a fan of Joss Whedon as a person, but BtVS had many female characters that all had different personal qualities.

[thewakokid]

Yeah, but the "Tough" / Badass characters all had - and even in his writing today, still have the same traits.

[meadowphoenix]

...who in buffy fits this? buffy doesn't, so...faith? but nothing about faith is framed as desirable in contrast to buffy? so who?

hell, who in firefly fits this?

[(Anonymous)]

I think you can discern a type with River and Faith, and from what I recall of Dollhouse, it gave me similar vibes as a show

(which... to be honest... people should probably re-evaluate Dollhouse at some point, because from what I remember about it, it seems kind of... not great)

[(Anonymous)]

What? River and Faith are vastly different. River and Mal have more in common than River and Faith. I just. Huh?

If anything River is closest to early series Echo, in the sense that they're both powerful weapons that are vulnerable, spacey, and vaguely child-like a lot of the time, due to being extremely brain-scrambled by TPTB. (But I'd still say you were doing some serious reaching if you suggested they weren't distinct and different from each other in a lot of ways.)

[meadowphoenix]

Dollhouse is great if you see it as the anti-capitalist/fascist/slavery narrative it's supposed to be, but my god getting to that point? Rapey. Episode after episode of Sucker Punch. Like "I don't think I should have to watch 40 versions of sucker punch just to see these people topple an secret techno-state" is a perfectly reasonable response. I can't recommend it unless you can tolerate that sort of thing. But if you can...then I recommend it.

Anyway, I completely agree Whedon has a type but I don't agree it's the type wako thinks it is or that Whedon's type has lead to this other sci-fi/superhero/fantasy types.

[(Anonymous)]

but my god getting to that point? Rapey. Episode after episode of Sucker Punch. Like "I don't think I should have to watch 40 versions of sucker punch just to see these people topple an secret techno-state" is a perfectly reasonable response.

I think that this is exactly the part of Dollhouse that maybe needs to be considered in light of our broader reassessment of Joss Whedon

Anyway, I completely agree Whedon has a type but I don't agree it's the type wako thinks it is or that Whedon's type has lead to this other sci-fi/superhero/fantasy types.

I think "type" is the wrong way to phrase it. There's a lot of different permutations and types of characters Whedon likes. But I think that there is a throughline: "damaged or traumatized + badass + physically slight = hot". Those elements pop up in different forms, but they pop up a lot, and that's what I mean when I mention River and Faith, they're part of that lineage

I agree that Whedon doesn't really have responsibility for the broader trend

[meadowphoenix]

I both understand what you're saying, and genuinely don't think the themes would read the same without that part (i.e. that part of the reason people don't recognize the technostate is trouble is that what it's perpetuating, misogyny and other power fantasies, is already reasonable and also it "gets rid" of criminals and that the male investment in destroying it is less ethical than horny), so *shrug* i don't know what to do about dollhouse. it should probably have just been a short series.

[(Anonymous)]

Seconding this times a million. I've literally been thinking this exact thought since Wako blamed Joss upthread.

I know hating Joss is extremely in right now (and I get why), but at least have a take that makes sense.

[thewakokid]

Ha. I just remembered how little people appreciate having their fav buffy chars disrespect / Least fav chars respected, so I'll just quietly bow out of this one.

[meadowphoenix]

hmmm...."wow don't wanna rile the stans!" is quite an inference from "who fits the type you say exists?" but if it helps you feel brave, I've enjoyed his shows, I'm not really attached to his characters, nor do I think "badass female characters tend to be mean" is some grand insult.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT but I think "badass female characters tend to be mean" was one of the points of the secret initially. As in: heavily stereotyped female characters or, to put it even better, having to pick between a Mary Sue (or, if we're lucky, Awkward Nerd) genius, a sensitive men-loving damsel in distress or a physically strong woman that can't take a joke without being a prick is like being stuck between a rock, a hard place and a cliff.

[meadowphoenix]

I mean, the secret's pretty short and is only about relatability. wako added the mean part as something he noticed and as originated by whedon. i'm just trying to see what he's talking about

[thewakokid]

Well, the inference was more from a general awareness that people - on this community sure, but specifically the General Buffy fandom - seem to take buffy discourse real fucking personally. Not really a swing at you, but you're statement that "Buffy doesn't fit", combined with my general knowledge that the fandom don't like being told the character they like is a jerk... Makes me think responding with:

"Buffy absolutely IS a jerk to people just because she's written as the //Strong// lead character, and the show just accepts this as fair."

Can only start a fight. But if you're sure you're not going to take it personally, then, I'll take you at your word.

[meadowphoenix]

I was hoping you would like, give an example. Obviously we don't think the same things are jerky,