fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5175 ]

[ SECRET POST #5175 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5175 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 57 secrets from Secret Submission Post #741.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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07. https://64.media.tumblr.com/5491ffc6ee577bfc73218e7fb096346f/119adb43fe6764b1-b1/s640x960/3c334d5b5bf33a23ab149c76a29274f3d1589ad7.png

Yeah, the thing I enjoy about villains is the whole "anyone can become a villain in the right circumstances" and it's weird to me how much flak one gets on twitter for having the tiiiiniest bit of sympathy for them.

I feel sorry for the people who believe that humans come in two easily distinguishable forms - good and evil. They're in for a big unpleasant surprise.

There's different kinds of villainy, though, just like there are different levels of evil in the world. We're all capable of a certain level of evil. But we aren't all going to go out and start a genocide (we might participate in one unknowingly or we're raised that way, but actively being excited to start one is a different matter). That's why there are different kinds of villains in different kinds of genres. You have the ones that gradually go that way or are that way because it is what they've always known and are more like normal people. Then you have the big powerful ones who crave power and have power and are very, very evil. You're more likely to find that type in scifi/fantasy type things. But there are some real world examples in people like Hitler, Trump, etc.

Look at ATLA. You have Sozin and Ozai, two big, over the top powerful villains who are pretty evil. Although Sozin gets their gradually while Ozai was raised in it. Then you have Zuko who is only that way because he was raised in it, but because he gets some better teaching from Iroh, he eventually wakes up and gets out. And you have Azula who is raised in it and isn't able to overcome her upbringing. Those two are the more ordinary people villains. So you can have both in the same fandom.

Yeah, one of the things that keeps drawing me back to my old fandom, I couldn't even put into words until recently, but there are no "good people" in it. The good guy is not a good guy. The obvious bad guy is not a bad guy but he's definitely also not a good guy. None of the minor characters is a good person (except maybe the little kid), and even the eventual final boss has some good intentions among the egotistical ones.

Any one of these characters could be "the villain" to someone else, and none of them are actually entirely evil. ...Well okay, one of them is a total scumbag without a hint of honor or decency, but everyone else is a mixed bag. ;)

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(Anonymous) - 2021-03-08 03:03 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2021-03-08 14:16 (UTC) - Expand

Though I think you only really get flak if there's a hint that a) you find the villain attractive (Joker, Loki) or b) identify with them (Azula, Loki again). People who stan the really straightforward evil villains like Sauron or Hela don't seem to get as much flak.

You'd be surprised. Sauron fandom on Tumblr does get flack sometimes from people offended that every single post isn't "evil, evil, evil, and more evil" all the time. I guess people assume that if you talk about a character's story or origin's at all or any characterization outside of evil at all, that's the same thing as woobifying them the way characters like Loki get.

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(Anonymous) - 2021-03-08 07:24 (UTC) - Expand

There's room for both types of villains. They serve different purposes within narratives tbh. That being said, I feel like the current push for plain evil baddies has more to do with low-quality "complicated" types in recent years than anything else.

I love all kinds of villains. I love full-on evil villains. I love villains with sympathetic backstories. I love villains who get redemption stories. They key is that the author makes their character interesting and believable and makes the story work. Any of the archetypes can work if done right. And honestly, even most full-on evil villains will have some sort of backstory. Even the devil does after all. Tolkien gives both his devil-figures backstories.

I think a good author/creator makes a villain compelling for a reader, makes their story interesting. But I also think with a good villain there is often room for more exploration. Because most of the time the perspective of media is the heroes. So fanfic is a great place for exploring the villain further.

And frankly, fans are going to like villains. Villains are interesting. Villains do interesting things. They often have interesting characterization and are fun to explore. Creators making them full on evil isn't going to stop fans from liking them. Look at Paradise Lost poem by Milton and how many people have looked at that or the Bible and gravitated towards the Devil. Look how many people find Dracula a favorite character. Melkor and Sauron are certainly full on evil, but there are plenty of us fans in the Tolkien fandom. Full-on-evil villains are still loved.

I think we don't talk about catharsis enough. I love a lot of characters who do or say things I never would in a million years, who have none of the remorse or shame I would have if I didn't hold back on my own nastier impulses. Sympathizing with characters like is a socially-acceptable (more or less) way of acknowledging that I'm not 100% good and pure in my thoughts.

Also anyone who's lived long enough has, at one time or another, been a villain in someone else's story. Maybe out of malice, maybe out of ignorance, but it's just not possible to live a life without hurting someone eventually. I think it's healthy and honest to confront that, and seeing stories through a villain's eyes can help to connect with the harm that we've done.

The biggest villains in our world do what they do because they are greedy or power-hungry or fueled by bigotry. A one-dimensional villain is a realistic portrayal of a villain. You think a billionaire who exploits people for personal gain has depth worth exploring? You think a power-hungry politician or world leader really gives a shit and is anything more than a shallow, greedy person? This fantasy where people see villains as people who were just "corrupted" is just that: a fantasy. Real-life villains aren't victims of the system that turned them evil; they are the system!

Yeah, but like you said, those exist in real life already and are boring in stories. Cause they're predictable and mundane.

OP isn't saying anything about "realism," they're talking about storytelling. Hyper realism is not necessarily the best storytelling.

Yes, that's why I enjoy fictional stories that are mostly fantasy/SF and over the top melodrama, not realism. I like it when villains in stories ARE more interesting and compelling than they generally are in the real world. If I wanted 1:1 reflection of the real world, I'd stick with literary realism and non-fiction.

No real person was born evil. No real person can ever be as shallow as a cookie-cutter villain, because they've all lived entire lives that shaped them into being evil. Most of those lives would be boring to watch, sure, but they're not simple or shallow like a character, because they're real. Your attitude is honestly one of the most terrifying because people who think like you think they're not capable of becoming evil. Anyone can go down the path of evil at any time. You think you're immune because you're not "the system," it's those evil people. You could become one of the evil people who thinks they're good because your evil acts aren't motivated by selfish reasons like money or power. You think those kinds of evil people are fictional. You're wrong.

Yeah. A lot of absolutely brutal real-world harm is done by people who think they're doing the right thing. Terrorists think they're heroic underdogs (looking at you, QAnon, thinking you're doing something to protect children and "save America" and overthrow the evil Deep State). Lots of abuse is "for your own good" and the abuser really believes that.

Anybody can become the villain in someone else's story. People who don't realize that scare me a hell of a lot more than self-aware people who just think Loki is hot.

The important thing is just, variety

To be honest, I just like "just evil" villains. I also like redeemable/tragic villain, but we have been getting lots of them recently, so you know, could use some evil just for evil.

A villain can be "just evil" and also sympathetic though, without being redeemable or being redeemed /shrug

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(Anonymous) - 2021-03-07 23:50 (UTC) - Expand

I'm fine with evil for the sake of it villains, not everything has the space for more complicated or sympathetic villains and that's fine, it's more about what the story requires or the stories limitations than the 'correct' way to write a villain and I always balk at the notion that there is some right way to write anything.

Both kinds can be written terribly, I'd rather just have a character that's fun and engaging rather than focusing on what kind of villain they are.

Villain fan. I agree with you but also think the “evil because evil” is pushback against a perception that all villains need a sympathetic excuse and some people are maybe tired of that. I’m not, but it’s just what I’ve observed. There’s plenty of boring straight forward irredeemable shits in real life so forgive me for wanting more of the idea there could be some good left in there in the fiction I consume.

Also I could go off on a whole rant about how some of this pushback is entrenched in gross misogynistic crap (considering a lot of “sympathetic” villains have mostly female fan bases) but I feel that conversation has been had so many times now. No matter what you try to say, there’s never going to be a shortage of people (including other women) queuing up to tell female fans they’re doing fandom wrong one way or the other.

On one hand, I personally love redemption arcs and that sort of stuff with all my heart. On the other hand, I've seen so many very badly executed Freudian excuses in the last few years - "Oh, I murdered all those people because my mother was mean" and so on - that I'm becoming seriously wary of anything that even hints at a tragic backstory for a villain.

(Not even touching on when the writer thinks the villain is a well-intentioned extremist and I'm just like... 'No, they're crazy and their plan is dumb. No part of this looks good.' Looking at you, Russo bros.)

This. A good redemption arc is amazing. But a badly done one is the worst.

I just don't think "villains with reasons" are done well, and creators are more capable of doing "villains because." but honestly people go back and forth on this every couple of years so i wouldn't worry

I feel ya,but also Snow White would not be improved by 20 minutes of backstory about the Evil Queen's loveless political marriage because the story isn't *about* her.

To me the desire for simple villains is A) they're fun B) they're harder to screw up and C) they leave enough time/focus for the hero to be cool and have fun with us.

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