[ SECRET POST #5209 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5209 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 39 secrets from Secret Submission Post #746.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

So it's a bit complicated, and different sides say they represent different things.

Antis (or antishippes) refer to a small amount of fandom policing
Pros (or proshippers) refer to more of a free-for-all sort of fandom outlook.

Both have reasonable points when looking at the more moderate ideals, but some of the more extreme takes can be

Antis: anti anything with an age gap or with a younger character (a common cited thing is a 17 year old with a 20 year old), anti "problematic" ships (incest, psuedo-incest), calling certain ships "pedophilia" that don't really fit into that mold

Proshippers: being cool with pedophilia (like actual pedophilia not just a 17/20 ship). And this isn't me just generalizing. Because I follow people on both sides of the sphere, I have seen people actively talk about and retweet these views.

Another thing is there's a bit of an age line in who is what.

Prominent antis tend to be younger people, often minors, who are trying to create a sort of autonomy and sense of control in a space. But they often go overboard.

Prominent pros often are those who are a bit more experienced with online fandom spaces and realize that censorship can be insanely harsh and crush minority (predominately LGBT+) voices. Also that works/ships can be used to explore sexuality in a safe way. But again, there are also those who are just very very extreme with Your Kink is Not My Kink thing where they will be chill with very obvious pedophiliac works. And sometimes refuse to examine certain tendencies (an example that isn't necessarily pro vs anti is a recent debacle with a white artist that draws almost exclusively Asian women beaten up or in grotesque scenes, which has prompted good discussions and call-outs of fetishization.)

[(Anonymous)]

This is such bullshit. As a proshipper, I'm pretty openly critical of adult/teen age gap relationships and multiple forms of fetishization that seem to be popular in fandom spaces.

The difference is that I can say that I'm skeptical of adult/teen relationships without targeting specific fans for harassment. See, I just did it.

And I also recognize that the elephant in the room in discussing antis and adult/teen relationships is Voltron fandom, where a lot of the harassment had fuckall to do with protecting youth and everything to do with escalating a shipwar.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

I wasn't referring to specific individuals, but what I have observed as a whole. I'm well aware that those who are proshippers are and often will be critical of media.

However, comparing those who openly label themselves as pro vs anti, this is what I have seen.

[feotakahari]

I just don’t trust the Someday. Fiction is Not Reality writes fanfics about adults fucking kids, so there’s this idea that Someday, he’ll rape a kid, and we need to stop him somehow. But he hasn’t raped a kid, and he doesn’t seem particularly interested in raping actual kids, and I don’t think Someday is ever going to happen.

[(Anonymous)]

This is basically the thing that kept me from being a full-blown anti, back when I used to have some anti opinions. No matter how fucked up I thought that stuff was at the time, I was always aware that the harm I was concerned about this stuff causing was potential harm, eventual harm, etc. And it's messed up to punish/harass someone for harm they might do at some point.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing that always gets me is that, back in my day, the people who wrote and drew all the teen/adult material for any given fandom, were people who were the age of the younger half of the ship.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

That's still the case for most teen/adult ships. It's overwhelmingly young fans writing or drawing fanworks for the pairing, frequently focusing mostly on the younger half of the ship. It's a safe way to play around with fantasies about something that would be awful in real life, as is the case for a lot of taboo content.

[philstar22]

I have never heard a pro-shipper say anything about pedophelia in real life, and if they did that would be an awful thing entirely separate from what side they were on the pro/anti debate.

the Pro/anti- debate is entirely about whether fiction is fiction and people can read what they want as long as it doesn't affect real life, or whether it is okay to judge people by what fiction they read and tell them what they can and cannot read, and that some things are wrong even when fictional (those things being usually some specific things, not everything wrong, like most antis don't think it is wrong to read about murder) and that people who read those things are bad people.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

I think there's a lot of focus on "does media influence things" when I personally think it needs more to be "is this something I need to publically post and interact with people about," mainly regarding the openly child/adult porn items.

Like, there is a lot of stuff that goes around that shows that people who have been big into that sort of fetishization have done porn fanart of real children. So it's not just "this person is not and will not harm real-life children" and more "it's really fucking hard to tell which is which and maybe sexualized images of 10 year olds shouldn't be posted on the internet"

Re: AYRT

[feotakahari]

Well, the idea was that it would be in a separate sphere from the “public.” An Archive of Our Own.

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

... you say this as if AO3 is somehow apart of the world at large? wtf

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

The vast majority of people in RL have no idea whatever that it exists, so yeah. You need to get your head above the fandom parapet more often.

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Hummmm,I'm a bit sceptical there. Do you have concrete examples (names)? If it's true, yuck!

Re: AYRT

[feotakahari]

I saw this on Bad RPers Suck once. Someone traced a photo of a child, gave her green skin, and played her as an orc girl in an underage NSFW roleplay. Also, I think there was some scandal with Shadman, but Shadman likes pissing off everyone he can.

Re: AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Twitter moves really fast, so I can't find it specifically anymore. But one recently is a male artist who was commonly known for cutesy art of girls (as in children, not as in the way we refer to grown women as girls). And people found his harder-to-find and closed groups included him posting pornographic art of real children.

I do think there is a good discussion being had recently on how we typically do find pin up/suggestive art of 15-16 year old girls gross, but don't have that same knee jerk with that of boys of the similar age. But there was a recently pile-on for a fanartist of My Hero Academia that was pretty wild, and I don't think entirely warranted.

[(Anonymous)]

I think sexualization in media does have an overall social effect of supporting cultural sexism, heterocentrism, transphobia, and racism. And in my own space, I'm reasonably vocal about that criticism. But I somehow never get called an "anti," largely because I think that criticizing individual fans (much less harassing them) is a waste of time. I have better things to do with my time than hate-read fanwork.

But I also think the practice of harassing others off of social media (and potentially out of jobs as well) is shitty politics as well, and ultimately supports the same techbro structures that enable shit like 4chan trolling ops and gamergators. Worse, I think that social media capitalists were quite willing to support that kind of activism for data and advertising clicks, at least up to the point where its proponents attempted to assassinate the U.S. VP and congresspersons. This sort of activity is routinely used to make social media a hostile environment for women and LGBTQ people.

And frankly, having been around the block on that multiple times, having been on both sides of that dynamic, it's abundantly clear to me that the social-justice goals are secondary to just having an excuse to acting like an asshole to other people.

[philstar22]

I totally agree with you on overall trends, I just don't think that translates to individual kinks and preferences. And I think the distinction between criticizing overall trends and criticizing individuals is important. As far I understand it, antis are the ones criticizing individuals and calling them bad people for liking certain things in fiction, so you wouldn't be considered one.

[(Anonymous)]

Unrelated, but who's the white artist drawing Asian women? I feel like I've run across them...

[deleted_scenes]

Google/twitter leads me to believe it's someone named Kinokorp. I dunno, it doesn't really look fetishy to me. It looks like a lot of "feelings" art. But perception can be subjective I guess.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, if it's another race only, and you're not part of that race, it seems a bit weird

(also she says in one of her bios that she's inspired by ero guro)

[(Anonymous)]

Oh my god no it isn't.

[(Anonymous)]

This art is so stylized I don't know how one can even confidently conclude that they only draw Asian women. They draw girls.

[(Anonymous)]

The real proshipper stance on "actual pedophilia," since you seem confused:

Cool: Fictional dynamics that are actually pedophilic within the work itself (e.g. Lolita, loli/shota anime)

Not Cool: Actual, real life cases of adults preying on children

What proshippers actually think would be the coolest: If antis redirected their obsession with pedophilia as The One Crime That Should Not Be Committed In Fiction for Some Reason Even Though Murder and Torture Are Fine to helping groups that raise awareness and help prevent real children from getting hurt, such as Thorn.org., instead of allowing actual real life child predators to be part of the anti community as long as they prove that they only like unproblematic fiction and bully people who like gross fiction.