fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5211 ]

[ SECRET POST #5211 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5211 ⌋

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My sister and I have been trying to work something out. We both grew up watching Disney films, but now my sister is trying to make a judgement call as to whether to let my niece watch them or not. At first glance we were both pretty against the idea because of things like the girls being super skinny and the gender dynamics. But on second thought it doesn't seem to be that clear cut. In Beauty and the Beast, for instance, Gaston is the perfect embodiment of toxic masculinity which is a powerful lesson. And Mulan and Shang are a romance between equals imo.

What do you think, ladies of FS? In the interest of the next generation of girls, Disney or no? Would really love to hear people's opinions on this.

(I'm afraid I have to drop this thread then disappear off to bed, so sorry for no answers for the next X hours or so.)

No kids, so take my opinion with a grain of salt lol, but I think things like Disney, etc., are perfectly fine and even open those doors to conversations about things you're worried they may take away from them.

No piece of media is going to be perfect, but we teach how to enjoy something for what it is, as well as be critical and understand what its flaws are, and why even if it's something we love (Sleeping Beauty for me), it's highly idealised and not something that you should be striving to be.

Of all the media in the world teaching young girls bad gender dynamics or self worth, I consider Disney movies to be so low on that scale it is negligible. Barring Snow White and Sleeping Beauty, I think every Disney Princess is a strong character that girls (and boys) can enjoy.

No personal experience with kids, so take this with a grain of salt, but:

Communication is key. If you want them to be able to recognize Gaston as an example of toxic masculinity, I assume you'd be discussing it with them (in an age-appropriate manner) during or after the movie. No reason you couldn't do the same with the other problematic elements of the movies that aren't deliberate, like the gender dynamics.

All the problems you can find in Disney movies are there because they exist all around us in ways that your niece won't be protected from by not letting her watch them. It's better to use movies that she can still enjoy and point out their shortcomings to her than ignore that they exist and let her discover them herself. And they're hardly the worst examples of the problem, so you don't need to be heavy handed or in depth when you point out their flaws to her. Simple comments like "It would be nice to see some Disney princesses who aren't thin like (princesses in whatever movies she's seen)" can get the idea across fine.

Your first sentence is what I was going to say. Hanging out with other kids and/or absorbing things from other sources (including adults) will expose her to these things anyway. It's better to let kids watch them and then have any age-appropriate discussions about them if they come up.

And they are hardly the worst example plus the things kids latch onto might be surprising. I was about 7-8ish when (original) Disney's Beauty and the Beast was first out and didn't care much about the romance or princess dress. I was more bothered about Belle being a reader and struggling to fit in because that was the thing that spoke to me most!

My eldest niece went through a super rigidly girly phase a few years ago when she started attending nursery. Now she's kinda not as into pretty dresses (but still wears them occasionally) and has rediscovered her previous love of Lego and dinosaurs. I know as adults we worry about imposing stereotypes on kids but sometimes you just have to let them be what they're going to be.

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 00:01 (UTC) - Expand

This sums up my feelings exactly. Well put.

Yes to Disney films, yes to all films - particularly ones with historical and cultural significance - so long as you offer an open and safe space for your niece to discuss and analyze all potential topics while also asking her opinion concerning how she herself feels about what she is seeing.

Take this with a grain of salt because I don't have kids, but honestly, IMO, people overthink this stuff. It's not as simple as "kids are sponges, they soak up toxic messages indiscriminately and it warps them for life". Do the Disney movies contain some problematic concepts, especially when it comes to body image for women? Absolutely. Are some messages better than others? Sure. Will kids even notice? Ehhh... depends on the age, and the kid.

Disclaimer time - I didn't grow up imbibing Disney movies and I wasn't immersed in all the princess stuff. I don't have any nostalgia goggles for Disney stuff, it doesn't interest me at all. Barbies were my thing, so you still have similar issues re: body image. As a kid, I didn't notice. Barbies weren't like human females, they were dolls. I didn't grow up thinking I ought to have giant, gravity-defying tits and a tiny waist. I wanted to be like Barbie in the sense that I had a giant wardrobe, a house and a pony and she was an adult who could do whatever the hell she wanted. (I don't have a nostalgia thing for Barbie, either.)

I'd say sure, let the kid watch (because you'd have to live in a cave in the mountains to avoid Disney stuff from outside sources) and be open to discussion but don't try to force moral messages or make it into a lesson. If you want to gently probe about certain ideas, ask the kid what they think about Gaston... does he seem like a nice person? Would he be a good friend to have? Why or why not? Listen to the answer, then maybe offer your take but don't be ham-handed about it.

And just in general, foster an environment with your kid so that they'll feel comfortable talking to you about anything at all, without getting in trouble or getting yelled at or ridiculed. That'll yield good results for life.

I wanted to be like Barbie in the sense that I had a giant wardrobe, a house and a pony and she was an adult who could do whatever the hell she wanted.

Yes, this!

I consumed tons of media as a kid and played with Barbies, and most of the people I know with issues around weight and body shape were either around bullying as kids or had toxic parents who told them they were fat.

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 01:36 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 06:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 06:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 03:19 (UTC) - Expand

It's probably nbd; the fact that you all are being mindful and thinking about these issues is probably bigger and more important and impactful than watching individual Disney movies is

Also no kids, so again grain of salt...having been a fat kid I don't think "skinny" Disney girls were ever my problem. I was much more negatively affected by things like advertising, and lack of variety in live-action heroines. I always knew Disney was "fantasy". And I loved the songs.

I think you can always "pre-screen" the film, but plenty of Disney is still a great fantasy for kids. I think something like "Lilo & Stitch" is lovely to watch with little girls. I think there's such a thing as overthinking it, too.

To me the question of messaging is kind of irrelevant. I'm just not in favor of controlling the content children have access to in that way. IMO the damage you'll do by trying to control them in that way is greater than whatever damage the thing you're "protecting" them from might do. The best you can do for them is model the attitudes you want to instill in them; let them hear you expressing and living the values you'd like them to have.

I mean yes, in general. There are exceptions though. Letting them use computer games like Roblox where adults with malign intent can access and talk to them seems pretty effing stupid.

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 07:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Disney question

(Anonymous) - 2021-04-13 09:35 (UTC) - Expand

Stepping aside from the question of Disney in particular, you might want to run them through the Barbie movies.

While, yes, everyone's v. skinny, they're big on women with agency, women helping each other, women sorting out their own issues. Plus, the music is pretty.

Let them watch some and not others. If they have questions, educate them.

They're all different in their portrayals of things. Moana is strong and smart and still deals with a (cool!) blowhard like Maui. Raya has a female lead and antagonist and they're beating the shit out of each other. Frozen has Anna falling for a murderous asshole.

My overriding Disney obsession was The Lion King, and while 9 year old me may have desperately wanted to be a lion, I didn't even become a furry. I think as long as parents talk to their kids about what they watch and read, it's more important to do that than to bar them from certain media that they'll probably be exposed to through school or friends anyway.

You can talk about Gaston and toxic masculinity, and Cinderella and abusive households, or whatever, just in an age-appropriate way. "Be pretty and skinny and marry Prince Charming" is only one possible lesson among many; don't reinforce it.

If nothing else, you can always open up a discussion about what the kid just watched. If you're concerned about how she interpreted certain things, just steer the conversation toward that. But subtly, not in a OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN way.

The Disney sequels are hit or miss though.

I think Disney is fine for children, especially if you have conversations about media literacy. I.e what is this movie trying to say? How does it impact culture? How does culture impact it? etc. I mean obviously frame it in a way that's easy for a young child to understand, and let them enjoy the movie, but it's never to0 early to teach your children to be smart consumers of media!

I grew up with Disney renaissance and believe me the last thing on my mind was their body type. I'd say let her watch the movies and let her make her own judgement. If she has any concerns just address them. Don't just let media raise her, add your own lessons and concerns as well. Children are smart.

There's also plenty of non Disney animated movies you can watch together as well: Spirited Away, Secret of Kells, Wolfwalkers, Over the Moon, Hotel Transylvania, etc.

Edit: also adding that I'm not a Disney fan, just adding my two cents.

Edited 2021-04-13 03:10 (UTC)

To me it's less about Disney, and more about her media environment, and her growth in media criticism. If ALL she's getting is disney, then you're limiting her ability to think through circumstances. She needs multiple frameworks of how women can operate, from the realistic to the fantastic. That's media environment. Secondly, is she comfortable disagreeing with what she sees? Can she say if she would act differently from the protagonist? Can she say what she likes? Can you say what you like and don't like about it? That's media criticism. You don't need to go hard or anything. It's just talking about what you see.

None of this really has to do with being a girl, any child needs this.

These are excellent points, thank you!

Thanks everyone who weighed in on this. Just reading through the comments now and then going to forward them to my sister. :)

I have two girls, 5 and 3 years old, so this has been on my mind a lot lately too. They've already watched quite a few, because I feel like it's unfair to keep them from something that will allow them to bond with other children their age. The newer ones often have more complex and progressive lessons - things like Moana and Frozen I have no problem with - but they're really getting into the older stuff at the moment like Cinderella, and I feel uncomfortable with the 'ugly girls = bad' and 'older women are shitty and evil' tropes that keep popping up. The best I can do is keep talking to them about the themes, and making myself/our family the best example I can in terms of morality.

It's impossible not to worry about these things as a parent, though. Particularly with young girls. They're already getting gender indoctrination from school and it's just frustrating sometimes.

OP

It's so frustrating! Everything is so gendered these days. Very good point about the older films. Sorry this is a really rushed comment as at work but really appreciate you're input

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