fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5215 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5215 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. [SPOILERS for The Falcon and the Winter Soldier]

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07. [WARNING for discussion of child grooming]

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08. [WARNING for discussion of rape/sexual assault]

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09. [WARNING for discussion of rape/sexual assault]

Notes:

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Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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06. [SPOILERS for The Falcon and the Winter Soldier]
https://i.imgur.com/7K32XZm.png

Can someone dumb this down for me? Maybe it’s the font confusing my eyes, or maybe there’s a chunk of a sentence missing somewhere, but I can’t parse what OP is saying.

I watch this show and still am not QUITE sure what exactly OP means.

I'm not sure either. I don't think the show is character-assassinating Steve any more than fans unhappy with his Endgame arc already did.

The latest episode kinda went there with the "Steve was a bit of a dick to his two friends doing what he did" but not particularly strongly and it was channelled through Bucky. Otherwise the show seems to be holding Steve up as an ideal if anything?

They don't like original MCU Captain America, and they don't think he was given enough of an character arc (meaning, I think, they thought he was samey throughout). Because of this, they are sad at the missed opportunity and think that The new Captain America of the Falcon and Winter Soldier tv show making the Captain America role in general look bad would have worked better if Steve-Cap had more of an arc to go on and had been a better character.

They seem to think that Steve-Cap was as much a symbol only as the new Cap and was a flat character apart from being a symbol of an American ideal. So for them the contrast doesn't work because it isn't strong enough.

I don't agree with them at all, but I think that's what they are saying.

Edited 2021-04-16 23:32 (UTC)

Ah ok, I think I get it now. And I think I also don't agree.

Wasn't Steve picked for the programme for being a guy who you wouldn't expect to be that sort of symbol? And Wyatt was obviously set up as the opposite of that for being highly decorated and having done X number of things in service plus being how the powers that be see themselves. I'm not saying it's perfect (nor that Steve was always handled perfectly) but it's basically an anvil to the head about how unsuitable the script thinks Wyatt is by comparison and despite some of the cruddy decisions with Steve's character journey, he was consistently seen to be putting personal glory behind what he felt was right.

Yup. Exactly.

Yeah, Steve was picked because he was an underdog and got a lot of shit throughout life, and the doctor (whose name I can't spell and am too lazy to google) thought that would keep the power from going to his head

I don't quite think MCU Steve Rogers' Cap was boring enough to be 'just a symbol'. I did like him, and he was definitely different from Walker. It's why it's also interesting to have his two friends (sort of) admit that his final move wasn't fair to them and they should move on. That his legacy shouldn't dictate their lives.

That said: I am already waaaaay more invested in Sam Wilson, and Sam Wilson as Cap, than I ever was in Steve.

Sorry for the confusion:

I've heard a LOT of fans (people who love Steve!) complaining about how Steve just left his friends in shitty circumstances, and Sharon's issues compound this. It intensified how unsatisfying they found his ending in Endgame. I think it would have been much harder for the Russos to write that ending (or at least write it more satisfyingly), and for TFATWS to continue it, if he'd been written with actual ethical conflicts that actually tied into his emotional one (which would actually be treated as a conflict that had a hand in his decisions).

He did have ethical conflicts, though. That was the whole point of Civil War, that he had issues with the Accords, and debated what to do about it, and ultimately decided he had to go with his conscience even if it meant going up against friends.

And he had ethical conflicts in Winter Soldier, not just emotional ones, because it was his friend helping the bad guys, and it made him hesitate, but ultimately he does what he has to and then once the job is done refuses to hurt Bucky further.

He had ethical conflicts in Avengers because he saw the weapons SHIELD had on the ship and it made him unsure of whether or not to work with them. Ultimately, he decided that he could work with them in spite of his unease.

Wow that's a lot of reading into what was happening that never actually happened on screen.

I about laughed out loud when Wyatt complained about having to talk to senators and his friend said "that's the job." When did Steve *ever* talk to senators since he thought governments had agendas? Fury and then Maria were the ones who talked to the government. And as far as punching his way out of things, that's all Steve *ever* did. The Russos sure are trying to retcon like OP is implying, but it won't fly. I laughed at my screen. There just isn't enough to work with there.

Wow that's a lot of reading into what was happening that never actually happened on screen.

Not really. What philstar said is mostly pretty obvious just from watching the movies. And I'm not even a Steve stan.

None of those things amounted to character conflicts in the actual narrative, if only because any emotional or ethical choice lasted a couple minutes at best. CW actually comes the closest to what I would have liked to see, because when Steve does waver ethically it's because of his emotional ties (i.e. Bucky would get professional help) but that's a 5 minute scene. At no point before does Steve even acknowledge there is a "maybe" to it (Tony is only using leverage because Steve is at "no"), and he certainly doesn't after. There is no ethical conflict in Winter Soldier. He doesn't like that he may have to hurt Bucky to save the world, he would much rather save both, but again there is no acknowledgment that there is a choice of which to prioritize, and he never implies that he would forgo striking at Hydra if it meant Bucky.

He had ethical conflicts in Avengers because he saw the weapons SHIELD had on the ship and it made him unsure of whether or not to work with them. Ultimately, he decided that he could work with them in spite of his unease.
He literally makes no choice about this. He doesn't decide, he is forced by circumstances (meaning at NO POINT do you think Steve is going to refuse to band together when there's actual trouble, that's just not a serious consideration). They all are forced, that's what's annoying about the movie.

[ SECRET POST #5215 ]

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