fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #757 ]

[ SECRET POST #757 ]

⌈ Secret Post #757 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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[Higurashi]

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[Higurashi, Miyo Takano]

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[Spider-Girl]

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[Onyanko Club]

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[Chowder]

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[School Days]

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[Skins]

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[Demons, Ruby/Rupert]

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[Ayreon, Magali Luyten]

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[Gurren Lagann]

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[Heroes]

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[Barney Stinson, How I Met Your Mother]

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[Supernatural]

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[Gundam Wing]

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167. [repeat]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 21 pages, 525 secrets from Secret Submission Post #109.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I think she's better off morally for being honest about the way she likes slash than you all are for treating her like a horrible excuse for a human being because of it.

I'm not saying s/he's a horrible person. I'm asking what s/he expects. Slash fandom has a high amount of real life gays and lesbians (as would make sense, when you deal with our sexuality), and by coming into our space and saying 'hey I don't really care about your real life issues', that's not starting things off on a good foot. Learn your audience. It's probably likely that I've read, reviewed, and enjoyed fic by someone who secretly just enjoyed 'the gay thing' as a fetish, but they were smarter than to whine about it.

And if you/the OP really wants to have a discussion about it, well, here you go: assuming you're talking about American gay rights, the reason we want people to care is that civil marriage is a contract between two adult citizens, and the country has this little right know as the Freedom of Religion. Legal marriage should not be tied to the religious beliefs of any one given faith, it would go against the separation of church and state. No one says that churches should be forced to accept gays into their sacraments. But legally, you should be able to be a bisexual trans atheist and enter into this contract with someone else. And when people say they 'don't care' about this issue, it makes we non-straight folk feel like you don't care about us. If you were a woman beneath a glass ceiling, getting paid $0.78 for every dollar your male coworkers receive, and then your friend told you that they 'don't really care' about there being a gender wage gap -- you would probably reevaluate how much that friend cares about you and your situation.

Not OP, but writer of the comment you're quoting.

I'm a girl. I would honestly rather deal with a gender wage gap than have everyone who didn't agree with feminism ostracized from society. Both of those options suck, and I definitely think it doesn't have to be one or the other, but hey, it's your analogy. I also don't think it means you don't care about someone at all if you're not out there supporting the issues that affect them.

Also, why are you assuming I'm straight? I'm not. There is a chance that this will affect me, and as I've said, I do support gay marriage. I've just lost the initiative to be active in my support rather than passive because I've been really turned off by how people who actively support gay marriage approach the issue of dealing with people who don't (antagonistically, that is.)

You probably think I'm really naive for saying this, but if I do end up with another woman, I'd rather have a non-legally-binding marriage ceremony and deal with all the legal issues of the contract separately than have the anti-gay-marriage people treated like they don't have the right to their opinions. You could probably say that tolerance for diversity of opinions is my own pet issue.

Racism is no longer acceptable in our society. Why should homophobia be?

Racism became unacceptable through decades of gradual change, that's why. Trying to fix everything at once would likely have caused the backlash to end all backlashes. Besides, racism isn't completely eradicated from our society.

In terms of ending homophobia, there's been so much (mostly natural) progress in the past decade- for example, the overwhelming support for Don't Ask Don't Tell isn't there anymore. It isn't as if things aren't changing at all.

Change doesn't happen unless we demand it. The only reason any has come about is because we've never stopped. To imply that it would have happened regardless of our protestations is incredibly naive.

We're fighting, damnit, because somebody has to. That's why apathy is such a detriment.

I'll give you that- I am pretty damn naive. And change usually does require quite a bit of work.

I suppose the change just felt more natural to me because it seemed more like an attempt to change people's minds than an attempt to shame people for not getting involved. The change we've had so far feels like what society was ready for (even if it took work to get society to that point.) The activists I've met recently seem like what they want is to force change. That's what struck me as ineffectual and intolerant, and turned me off.

Do you think apathy for a cause is worse than scorn for an overly aggressive cause?

(I'm curious as to what you think about civil unions... a good stepping stone to marriage, or a compromise not worth settling for?)

If you've met overly aggressive activists lately, please put it in the context of recent events--the defeat that was Prop 8, after the victory that was the California supreme court decision, was an incredibly painful blow, but in being so painful has served as a remarkable rallying point, the likes of which haven't been seen for nearly twenty years.

This fighting spirit has caused more hope than there's been experienced in years, so there's a concerted effort not to let go of it. Wait-and-see isn't really good enough anymore. (Bit of a side note, but the vote on Prop 8 was blamed by most on an apathy in many who do support gay marriage--ballot confusion, low voter turnout in more liberal areas, etc).

Civil unions? I'm torn. About the only thing that's helped me form an opinion on them is the results they've gotten in the UK--they're viewed as marriages by the general populace. Basically, they'll only be acceptable as long as they include every single damn one of the federal benefits that opposite-sex marriages get.

Can I just say that I love your responses on this post. They have been saying what I have been trying to say but much better.

Thanks, that means a lot. :)

I understand about Prop 8. (I thought that the reason behind Prop 8 passing was somewhat because a lot of the people who turned out to vote for Obama were socially conservative Democrats, but also somewhat because some church or other had started a mass "information" campaign, where they said that all churches would be forced to marry gay couples, and that schools would be required to teach tolerance for homosexuality. Hadn't the mayor of San Francisco also said something about how gay marriage would happen whether people liked it or not? I know there were a lot of factors involved, but I was pretty sure one of them was people not feeling like they had the right to oppose it.)

I actually agree with you mostly on the civil union thing (which surprises me a little), in that it's better to get equal civil unions sooner than to refuse those and wait for it to be called "marriage." You seem a bit utilitarian yourself. (Side note: Personally I'd like all couples, gay or straight, to be given "civil unions" instead of marriages, but that's not going to happen.)

Yeah, well, this too. Sorry, I totally oversimplified that statement to a pretty ridiculous degree (I think I was in a hurry to get the comment posted). It's a whole mess. The vote was so close that a greater voter turnout by Prop 8 opposers could have probably made things turn out differently, but the misinformation given in the churches was part of it too. The Anti-Prop 8 campaign should have gone into the churches themselves, but that had more to do with mishandling the campaign than apathy.

The thing said by the mayor of San Fransisco, it was just a stupid little blip that unfortunately got used in all the worst ways (a politician should have known better, but the man's such a vocal LGBT supporter that I'm resistant to blaming him for too much).

It's just. A lot of the LGBT movement has lacked motivation for a while now, and the Prop 8 vote was an unfortunate wake-up call to the situation.

Utility v. Morality, oh man oh man.

From what I've heard, the Yes on Prop 8 campaign was quite a bit more organized and well-funded than the No on Prop 8 one. I'm guessing overall there are more people in California who either support or don't really mind gay marriage than the people who are actively opposed to it, but from a campaign standpoint, the Yes people did quite a lot right. Maybe the No people didn't really consider them a threat?

Think going to the churches would really have done much?

There were more than a few people who just didn't think Prop 8 had a chance, yeah. The millions of dollars pouring in from the Mormon church didn't help either.

Doing something to correct all of the misinformation circulating, yeah. California's actually got a lot of protection regarding the kind of education parents want their children to have, but that information didn't make it everywhere.

Also, liberalism v. conservativism in California's kind of a frustrating situation. Always a blue state, with huge liberal big-city centers, but with a Republican governor and many Republican officials who enjoy pretty stable positions most of the time. A huge immigrant population that tends to lean conservative. That sort of thing. Prop 8 opposers overlooked too many constituencies and made too many assumptions.

So because you don't like someone's tactics you are just going to throw that movement under the bus.

And you know it is nice that you don't want legally binding ceremony but many people do and it is important to them so don't belittle them because they want and desire something that you don't.

You know they have a right to an opinion, people have a right to hold any opinion. But they don't have the right to not have that opinion challenged or not be faced with the consequences of expressing that opinion. The right to hold an opinion is not right, but if having people challenge and criticize and oppose your opinion and talk about how they don't agree and are offended by what is implying, then yeah maybe you should hold back if you don't want to deal with those consequences, the OP did it anonymously, but that doesn't people are not going to hold back and say why they think that opinion is misinformed or hypocritical.

I don't want to take part in a movement that has tactics that are hostile and alienating. Me alone won't be able to make it any different, and it seems like most people prefer it just the way it is. It's not throwing the movement under the bus for me not to want to be in it. It would be really cocky of me to assume I was doing some damage to the movement by not being in it.

You missed the point, I think. I'd rather have a legally-binding ceremony. I just think that the right to not get involved in a cause or to oppose it without public scorn is a little more important to me. I never thought I was belittling people for wanting a legal marriage, and if so, I apologize. I was only meaning to say that if the tactics of the movement succeed, it would not be personally worth it to me.

Tolerance toward an opinion. That's a little different than the right to say it, just as "I'm pro gay rights, and I really think that if you enjoy slash, you should care about gay people in real life, too" is different from "You're fetishizing the characters you claim to care about, and I feel sick at the thought of someone like you in my fandom!" Yeah, of course we should be able to disagree with people who have different beliefs than we do, I just wish there was a little more respectful disagreement and agreement to disagree.

Also- since when is slash fandom "our space"? (I assume you're referring to gays and lesbians?) That's incredibly arrogant. Fandom is open for everybody. There are probably more straight women in slash fandom than there are any other demographic, but that doesn't make it their space, either. I'd agree that the majority of people who are in slash fandom are vocally supportive of gay rights, and the OP should know her (I'm assuming the OP is female?) audience enough to realize that. Probably that's why she (or he, I suppose) posted it anonymously on a site for confessing secrets instead of declaring it out loud to his or her f-list.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #757 ]

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