fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #757 ]

[ SECRET POST #757 ]

⌈ Secret Post #757 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Higurashi]

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[Higurashi, Miyo Takano]

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[Spider-Girl]

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[Onyanko Club]

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[Chowder]

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[School Days]

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[Skins]

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[Demons, Ruby/Rupert]

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[Ayreon, Magali Luyten]

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[Barney Stinson, How I Met Your Mother]

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[Gundam Wing]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 21 pages, 525 secrets from Secret Submission Post #109.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I go to a college where the prevailing mindset is that if you aren't in support of LGBT rights, then you're a small-minded, bigoted dick. I have gotten bitched at for saying that some people who claim to be LGBT might be wrong about themselves. After Prop 8 passed, you couldn't admit to being apathetic about it and not get called out on it. Nobody said they voted for the thing, but I'm quite sure some people did.

I'm not saying I support Prop 8- I voted against it. But personally, I feel that people being allowed to have their own opinions and express them without being a "privileged idiot" or something, that's at least an equally important freedom. And frankly, I've become a lot less impassioned about gay rights now that "gay people should be able to get married" has become a mandatory opinion in fandom and in some social circles in real life. Yeah, I'll vote for pro-gay laws, since I vote anyway, but I really don't care as much now that people are being treated like awful human beings if they're even apathetic to the issue. Fandom likes to present itself as a very tolerant place, but it doesn't seem to be tolerant at all to people who have different beliefs than most of us, or even to people who are apathetic about the pet issues du jour.

Maybe the OP is really not the political type. Maybe the OP likes slash for reasons totally independent of teh ghey- characters in slash fics tend to angst and brood before getting together more than their het counterparts do. There's the element of forbidden love in a lot of settings, and based on the way a lot of women in the media are written, a male/male couple will usually have a different dynamic than a male/female couple will. (This isn't always the case, though, and if the OP is reading this, there IS het out there where the characters are written in a way you'd enjoy, you just have to look a little harder...) Even if she does like it in an exploitative way, what's wrong with that? It's not like she's out there campaigning against gay rights, she's just not really doing anything about it. How is that hurting anyone?

I think she's better off morally for being honest about the way she likes slash than you all are for treating her like a horrible excuse for a human being because of it.

Gay marriage is not a "pet issue du jour". It is about people's lives.

And I do think that if you don't care about other people's lives, you are an awful human being.

I think the attitude though is problematic and thank you for reducing issues that do affects people's lives to a mere "pet issue".

I have gotten bitched at for saying that some people who claim to be LGBT might be wrong about themselves.

Maybe the issue people are taking with it is that this attitude is trying to dictate how people identify them yourselves and it maybe it is not appropriate for you to make judgments in that case.

The third case though is really exploitative, and I think exploiting a type of a relationship while thinking in reality that those relationships are inferior and argue against their rights is hypocritical and offensive.

Gay men are not here for the purpose of entertaining straight women.

Her being honest does not mean that I can't think that she is a hypocrite.

Maybe the issue people are taking with it is that this attitude is trying to dictate how people identify them yourselves and it maybe it is not appropriate for you to make judgments in that case.

Agreed. Sexual identity is a very personal thing, and very difficult to describe. It's never as simple as the container words we are given by language - "gay/straight/lesbian". Am I still a lesbian if I only like red-heads, for example, or am I really red-head-sexual? Am I bisexual if I jerk off to men but have a female partner? Etc. I think there are times when people need to understand that the world at large does tend to judge you by your partner history/your current partner (gays married to a member of the opposite sex, for example), but the outside observers also have to understand that what a given individual's sexuality means to them can easily be nothing like 'what it looks like'. If I walked up to the OP and said "HEY I BET YOU LIKE CHEESE A LOT AMIRIGHT? IT'S ON YOUR SANDWICH THERE! NO? WELL MAYBE YOU ARE WRONG AND SECRETLY YOU DO!" -- I bet the OP would be upset because I am presuming to know more about their tastes than they do.

I agree with you. Gay men don't exist for the purpose of entertaining straight women. But women don't exist for the purpose of entertaining straight men, either, and the last time I checked, you don't see people getting angry at straight men for refusing to take up every feminist cause out there. Why isn't it okay to be attracted to something without having to get socially involved about it? Most of the characters in slash fic don't actually exist. (I'm not all that familiar with RPS, but I know it exists.) Real people aren't being exploited.

By "pet issue", I didn't mean that it was trivial, I just meant that fandom seems to focus on it instead of other issues. And really? All issues are important and affect people's lives. The abortion debate, the environment, the mess in Iraq, saving Dar Fur, ending sexism or racism- I consider them all to be important, and they all do affect people's lives, but if someone were to focus on one of these issues specifically, especially to the point of not liking anyone who doesn't support the cause, yeah, I'd call it a pet issue. Gay marriage is important. That doesn't make it the only important issue, or make its advocates better than the advocates for everything else.

"Some people think they're gay, but then turn out to be straight" isn't making a judgment of anyone specific. I've also seen it happen to friends. It's possible that years down the road, they might decide that they've actually been gay or bi all along, and if that happens to all of them, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Questioning your sexuality shouldn't mean that the answer always has to be "yes, I'm LGBT."

I still don't get how she's a hypocrite. She likes slashfic as fantasy. She's not politically involved about gay rights in reality. You can dislike it, but how is she violating her own principles?

I think there is a big difference between liking slash and maybe not being an activist or marching, but I do have a problem if you are support and like slash and then don't care or are against gay rights in reality. I am sorry.

And people in fandom discuss those issues to, but the thing is that in general there isn't really a connection between fandom and the environment or Iraq like there is between gay rights and fandom because fandom does deal with stories and such of gay relationships. There isn't as much of an intersection so those things don't come out as often. And no one is claiming that gay marriage is the only important issue, but because of the role of slash in fandom there is a connection between it and gay people in real life.

I think that argument is problematic, and when you use it in a debate about things like that it becomes kind of a kin to "you are just going through phase," which is hurtful to many people who are gay and who are being told that over and over. Yes they may be experimenting, but I don't see why the possible future of people's orientations come into play.

It is not being politically involved that I have a problem with. It is liking and enjoying slashing while being apathetic or against gay rights in real life, because the implication to that is that gay men (and women as well) are only good for fiction in support of straight women's fantasies. These things are not created in a vacuum.

No. I'm not going to respect an opinion (or person) that denies me my rights. You can't talk shit and put other people down and expect them to treat you with the utmost respect.

I think she's better off morally for being honest about the way she likes slash than you all are for treating her like a horrible excuse for a human being because of it.

I'm not saying s/he's a horrible person. I'm asking what s/he expects. Slash fandom has a high amount of real life gays and lesbians (as would make sense, when you deal with our sexuality), and by coming into our space and saying 'hey I don't really care about your real life issues', that's not starting things off on a good foot. Learn your audience. It's probably likely that I've read, reviewed, and enjoyed fic by someone who secretly just enjoyed 'the gay thing' as a fetish, but they were smarter than to whine about it.

And if you/the OP really wants to have a discussion about it, well, here you go: assuming you're talking about American gay rights, the reason we want people to care is that civil marriage is a contract between two adult citizens, and the country has this little right know as the Freedom of Religion. Legal marriage should not be tied to the religious beliefs of any one given faith, it would go against the separation of church and state. No one says that churches should be forced to accept gays into their sacraments. But legally, you should be able to be a bisexual trans atheist and enter into this contract with someone else. And when people say they 'don't care' about this issue, it makes we non-straight folk feel like you don't care about us. If you were a woman beneath a glass ceiling, getting paid $0.78 for every dollar your male coworkers receive, and then your friend told you that they 'don't really care' about there being a gender wage gap -- you would probably reevaluate how much that friend cares about you and your situation.

Not OP, but writer of the comment you're quoting.

I'm a girl. I would honestly rather deal with a gender wage gap than have everyone who didn't agree with feminism ostracized from society. Both of those options suck, and I definitely think it doesn't have to be one or the other, but hey, it's your analogy. I also don't think it means you don't care about someone at all if you're not out there supporting the issues that affect them.

Also, why are you assuming I'm straight? I'm not. There is a chance that this will affect me, and as I've said, I do support gay marriage. I've just lost the initiative to be active in my support rather than passive because I've been really turned off by how people who actively support gay marriage approach the issue of dealing with people who don't (antagonistically, that is.)

You probably think I'm really naive for saying this, but if I do end up with another woman, I'd rather have a non-legally-binding marriage ceremony and deal with all the legal issues of the contract separately than have the anti-gay-marriage people treated like they don't have the right to their opinions. You could probably say that tolerance for diversity of opinions is my own pet issue.

Racism is no longer acceptable in our society. Why should homophobia be?

Racism became unacceptable through decades of gradual change, that's why. Trying to fix everything at once would likely have caused the backlash to end all backlashes. Besides, racism isn't completely eradicated from our society.

In terms of ending homophobia, there's been so much (mostly natural) progress in the past decade- for example, the overwhelming support for Don't Ask Don't Tell isn't there anymore. It isn't as if things aren't changing at all.

Change doesn't happen unless we demand it. The only reason any has come about is because we've never stopped. To imply that it would have happened regardless of our protestations is incredibly naive.

We're fighting, damnit, because somebody has to. That's why apathy is such a detriment.

I'll give you that- I am pretty damn naive. And change usually does require quite a bit of work.

I suppose the change just felt more natural to me because it seemed more like an attempt to change people's minds than an attempt to shame people for not getting involved. The change we've had so far feels like what society was ready for (even if it took work to get society to that point.) The activists I've met recently seem like what they want is to force change. That's what struck me as ineffectual and intolerant, and turned me off.

Do you think apathy for a cause is worse than scorn for an overly aggressive cause?

(I'm curious as to what you think about civil unions... a good stepping stone to marriage, or a compromise not worth settling for?)

If you've met overly aggressive activists lately, please put it in the context of recent events--the defeat that was Prop 8, after the victory that was the California supreme court decision, was an incredibly painful blow, but in being so painful has served as a remarkable rallying point, the likes of which haven't been seen for nearly twenty years.

This fighting spirit has caused more hope than there's been experienced in years, so there's a concerted effort not to let go of it. Wait-and-see isn't really good enough anymore. (Bit of a side note, but the vote on Prop 8 was blamed by most on an apathy in many who do support gay marriage--ballot confusion, low voter turnout in more liberal areas, etc).

Civil unions? I'm torn. About the only thing that's helped me form an opinion on them is the results they've gotten in the UK--they're viewed as marriages by the general populace. Basically, they'll only be acceptable as long as they include every single damn one of the federal benefits that opposite-sex marriages get.

Re: 166.

kristenell.livejournal.com - 2009-02-02 04:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

meran-flash.livejournal.com - 2009-02-02 05:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

(Anonymous) - 2009-02-02 05:12 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

meran-flash.livejournal.com - 2009-02-02 05:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

(Anonymous) - 2009-02-02 08:14 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

meran-flash.livejournal.com - 2009-02-02 08:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

meran-flash.livejournal.com - 2009-02-02 09:03 (UTC) - Expand

So because you don't like someone's tactics you are just going to throw that movement under the bus.

And you know it is nice that you don't want legally binding ceremony but many people do and it is important to them so don't belittle them because they want and desire something that you don't.

You know they have a right to an opinion, people have a right to hold any opinion. But they don't have the right to not have that opinion challenged or not be faced with the consequences of expressing that opinion. The right to hold an opinion is not right, but if having people challenge and criticize and oppose your opinion and talk about how they don't agree and are offended by what is implying, then yeah maybe you should hold back if you don't want to deal with those consequences, the OP did it anonymously, but that doesn't people are not going to hold back and say why they think that opinion is misinformed or hypocritical.

I don't want to take part in a movement that has tactics that are hostile and alienating. Me alone won't be able to make it any different, and it seems like most people prefer it just the way it is. It's not throwing the movement under the bus for me not to want to be in it. It would be really cocky of me to assume I was doing some damage to the movement by not being in it.

You missed the point, I think. I'd rather have a legally-binding ceremony. I just think that the right to not get involved in a cause or to oppose it without public scorn is a little more important to me. I never thought I was belittling people for wanting a legal marriage, and if so, I apologize. I was only meaning to say that if the tactics of the movement succeed, it would not be personally worth it to me.

Tolerance toward an opinion. That's a little different than the right to say it, just as "I'm pro gay rights, and I really think that if you enjoy slash, you should care about gay people in real life, too" is different from "You're fetishizing the characters you claim to care about, and I feel sick at the thought of someone like you in my fandom!" Yeah, of course we should be able to disagree with people who have different beliefs than we do, I just wish there was a little more respectful disagreement and agreement to disagree.

Also- since when is slash fandom "our space"? (I assume you're referring to gays and lesbians?) That's incredibly arrogant. Fandom is open for everybody. There are probably more straight women in slash fandom than there are any other demographic, but that doesn't make it their space, either. I'd agree that the majority of people who are in slash fandom are vocally supportive of gay rights, and the OP should know her (I'm assuming the OP is female?) audience enough to realize that. Probably that's why she (or he, I suppose) posted it anonymously on a site for confessing secrets instead of declaring it out loud to his or her f-list.

Maybe the OP likes slash for reasons totally independent of teh ghey-

This. This is the issue right here.

Fucking hell, is that REALLY all you think there is to it? Are you REALLY that dense?

You can't. Claim. To care about the characters as people and then turn around and fetishize them.

Also, I don't know why we apparently aren't to hate apathy in and of itself. Apathy is the fucking root of social rot and I'm allowed to think less of you for acting like it's acceptable.

I don't think I'm dense. I do, however, think that assuming someone who doesn't care about gay rights is necessarily a slash fan for fetishizing homosexuality based on one fandomsecret sized block of information is jumping to conclusions based on stereotypes of these people. It's possible she fetishizes them, and I also said I don't think that's wrong of her if it's the case. But "hypocritical gay fetish" is not the direct conclusion of "likes slash" and "apathetic about gay marriage."

What does caring about the characters as people (as opposed to what, a set of traits?) have to do with it? How do you judge whether someone cares about the characters as people by whether they "fetishize" them or not? Do you mean by that that someone who enjoys PWP of their favorite characters, or is sexually attracted to certain characters or certain situations involving them, doesn't care about them as people? If so, there are plenty of people who do support gay marriage that fetishize the characters they like, and therefore don't care about them as people. A homosexuality fetish is still a homosexuality fetish, whether the person who has it cares about gaining rights for real-life gay people or not.

Okay. Think less of me for believing apathy is acceptable. I think less of you for believing that it's wrong for somebody not to care about the same things you do, or -gasp- have different opinions about them entirely. Good luck trying to convince other people to support your cause when you look down on them for not already supporting it.

But "hypocritical gay fetish" is not the direct conclusion of "likes slash" and "apathetic about gay marriage."

Um. Yes it is?

What does caring about the characters as people (as opposed to what, a set of traits?) have to do with it?

The OP claimed that they cared about their ships because of the traits of the characters, not because of 'teh ghey'. But it's impossible to claim this and then refuse to treat the characters as if they're human beings in the context of whatever world they live in.

Think less of me for believing apathy is acceptable. I think less of you for believing that it's wrong for somebody not to care about the same things you do, or -gasp- have different opinions about them entirely.

If you're going to oppose my opinion, form a fucking argument about the issue. Being apathetic about it doesn't make it any less of an issue--shutting oneself into their safety bubble and ignoring the world around them is pathetic.

No, it isn't. There's a difference between fanfic about sex and fanfic about relationships. If she's only reading porn, I'd probably agree with you, but not everybody likes porn. Not even all slash fans like porn. Maybe you're using "fetish" in a different context than "sexual fixation to the point of objectification"?

Caring about the traits of the characters =/= seeing them as people. Hypothetically, someone could like pairings between a submissive character and a dominant character, for example, regardless of who's what gender. That doesn't mean that those characters are really viewed as human- even if in canon they have well-developed personalities, they could just be viewed as stereotypes of a dominant and a submissive character to the reader. Interest in character traits can be as shallow as interest in character gender. Also, the context of whatever world the characters live in doesn't always include the potential for gay marriage. Not every culture views sexuality the same way.

I haven't read every single comment to this post, but you're the one telling me to come up with an argument when all you've done is swear and throw around insults?
Fine. Say you want something to gain a certain amount of support (in this case, gay marriage, and getting enough support to be legalized.) Say that the amount of support it already has isn't sufficient, and that in order to meet the goal, it needs more supporters. Now, where are those supporters going to come from? If most people already know about the issue, then there are two places these new supporters can come from, the opposition, and people who are undecided or apathetic. Given that the opposition already has strong opinions on the matter, it's probably going to be easiest to draw the undecided or apathetic to your side.
What's the best way to convince those people? One method is shaming them into it. You could insult them, or treat them like they're stupid and don't know what they're talking about, and act like they're socially unacceptable. Usually, that works better if there's enough pressure on them to be acceptable to you- either there's enough benefits of being accepted by you, or enough consequences of not being accepted by you. There's not a unified movement to shun people who aren't actively supporting gay marriage, though, so maybe you'll be able to influence some people, but you won't be able to influence everyone. People have a certain way of getting defensive when they're criticized, and you'll likely drive as many people away from potentially becoming part of the gay rights movement as you attract to it.
Think of it like PETA. They encourage people to go completely vegan or vegetarian, often in stupid ways, and they've lost a lot of their credibility- not always because their methods are silly, but because people are annoyed at being told that they need to give up animal products completely and encourage others to do so. Imagine if people were encouraged instead to eat less meat, instead of none (arguments such as the environment, health, etc could be used). A less extreme commitment would attract a much greater number of people, and a large number of people putting in some effort generally yields a greater result than a very small group of people putting in a lot of effort: in this case, less animals would be eaten.

Don't you think you might get more people to support gay marriage if you gave them good reasons to do so, reward them with support for being an active participant rather than with shunning for being apathetic or part of the opposition, and allow people to help a litle rather than being rude to them for not helping at all? Sure, the people out there campaigning are helping the most, but the people who vote pro-gay rights are also helping too. Whatever strategy you take, you'll probably attract the passionate people who get out there and work for gay rights, but the people who'd help a little bit probably get repelled by a "my way or the highway" type of attitude (sorry to be trite.) I guess I'm arguing from a more utilitarian perspective than you are, but whether or not it's moral to be a non-supporter or to approve of non-supporters, it's ultimately better for your movement not to bash anyone who doesn't participate.

I don't think you and I are having the same argument. Let me aim for clarity here.

You implied that I wouldn't be able to handle arguments differing from mine on the gay marriage issue. This isn't true, and this is what I was addressing when I challenged anybody (not you specifically) who doesn't agree with me on it to formulate an argument against me. (Hell, I welcome it--it's such an easy argument to win.) The OP actively refuses to formulate an argument.

Do you see? I'm attacking apathy again. When a person is confronted with an issue, they have to either gain knowledge and take a stand, or they have to admit their refusal to take part in the debate. This second option, ignorance and apathy, is never, ever something to be proud of. Right, yeah, we can't all have opinions on every issue affecting society because nobody is going to be able to gain the all of knowledge needed to form constructive ones, but when we can't/won't take part in the resolution of a problem, we shouldn't act as if this is the proper position to take.

This is my problem with the OP. Like it or not, her views on slash are part of society's greater views on homosexuality, because she is a part of society. Therefore, the gay marriage issue is a pretty direct consequence and affects her, and probably many people she knows, pretty directly. The fact that she's acting like it doesn't is what makes her a hypocrite, or at least in denial. Her pride in refusing to be part of a resolution is what makes her pathetic. A person can't be proud of doing nothing.

You take issue with the language I've used in my comments, saying that it isn't constructive towards pulling people to my side of the argument. What I say to that is, arguing for gay marriage is not what this particular debate has been about, and also, when I do argue that issue seriously in a different context, I handle myself differently. The OP, in this case, has specifically chosen a forum in which she isn't to be reasoned with. Until she finds the wherewithal to defend her position, I don't particularly feel like paying her the lip service.

I wasn't meaning to imply that you were unable to handle a rational argument, just that it seemed you were putting a standard on me (coming up with a rational argument) that you weren't following yourself. I mistakenly took it as a challenge, and I guess I kind of got carried away in the tl:dr sort of way.

What happens when someone gets informed, or is presented with information, and after getting informed feels like they cannot take a side? What happens when there's a conflict of interest (say, somebody's a devout Catholic, but also knows gay people that he doesn't feel should be discriminated against?) and someone feels the only thing they can do is NOT to take a side?

I agree with you that uninformed apathy is something to be avoided, even if people don't want to become activists. But there are reasons that people have for not taking a side that aren't based in ignorance. Someone might just not be able to decide. I'd have to say I respect someone who's informed, but indecisive much better than someone who's got an opinion, but isn't informed. (A lot of the people I went to high school with who claimed to hate the former President, but never gave any justification as to why, come to mind.)

I'm not pro-apathy as much as I'm anti targeting apathetic people. I think someone can opt out of an issue if they want to, and it's not really good but they shouldn't be harrassed over it. Forced participation ("you're with us, or you're against us" type attitudes) also give causes a bad reputation, and although I'm not involved with the gay rights movement, I do want to see legalized marriage, or damn good civil unions happen. I think it'll undo some of the progress that people have made in society seeing gay people as someone who could be their neighbor instead of some sick deviant, if suddenly you're a homophobe for not participating with the cause. Apathy is a step above contempt.

I don't have a problem with swearing. Mostly, it was that I thought you were being aggressive and intimidating rather than using superior facts and debating skills. And arguing for gay marriage wasn't what this debate was about, but what would have been wrong with attempting to convince her to get involved instead of hanging around insulting her?

I'll concede the point of informed indecisiveness, you're right there. It's just that it's not a situation that comes up all that often, except in cases where an issue is so vast that it's pretty near impossible for the average person to feel that they've heard all sides of it.

The OP here represents the kind of active refusal to gain information on an issue that is the real and far more common problem.

I think it'll undo some of the progress that people have made... if suddenly you're a homophobe for not participating with the cause. Apathy is a step above contempt.

This, certainly, but that isn't exactly the issue that arose here. Most of the time, when does one even get the opportunity to 'target' apathetic people? In being apathetic they become pretty hard to spot. If one does happen to end up in a conversation with someone like this, well. I wasn't advocating targeting anyone. Since you're referring to the way I handled the OP in particular, I'll say that I based my behavior on my reaction towards hers.

what would have been wrong with attempting to convince her to get involved instead of hanging around insulting her?

It's not how I'd handle myself in every situation, no, but at the same time I'm not particularly inclined to apologize for how I handled myself here. This is what I mean by basing my behavior off of the OPs--she made a statement in a manner that pretty much shuts her off from all reasoned debate, so I didn't feel like paying her the lip service.

If I felt like I could change her mind, maybe, but her behavior makes it seem pretty much shut.

Re: 166.

(Anonymous) - 2009-02-02 08:00 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 166.

meran-flash.livejournal.com - 2009-02-02 08:53 (UTC) - Expand

I'm not saying she's a horrible excuse for a human being.

I'm saying she IS a fucking hypocrite. There is a difference, and both can be recovered from.

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