fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #763 ]

[ SECRET POST #763 ]

⌈ Secret Post #763 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Drake and Josh]

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[BSG]

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[Vampire Knight]

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[Demons]

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[Life]

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[Roswell]

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[Ga-Rei -Zero-]

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[Sailor Moon]

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[Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon]

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[Persona 4]

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[Ryan Ross; Panic! at the Disco]

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[Persona 4]

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[Bleach, Yoruichi]

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[Celtic Thunder]

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[Underworld Trilogy]

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[Ursula, the Little Mermaid]

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[Guiding Light]

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[CyberSix]

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[FT Island]

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[Big Fat Quiz of the Year]

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[Torchwood]

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[Runaways, Karolina/Xavin]

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[Simpsons, Rod and Todd]

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[Joe Loves Crappy Movies (webcomic), Twilight]

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[Utena]

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[Doctor Who/RPS/Russell T. Davies/Benjamin Cook]

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[The Munsters]

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[Adventures of Pete and Pete]

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[Jimi Hendrix/Janis Joplin]

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[Taylor Lautner; Twilight Movies]

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[FF13]

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[Nick Swardson]

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(Rachel Maddow, Susan Mikula, Keith Olbermann)

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[Earth: Final Conflict, Da'an]

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[Ouran, Persona 4]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #109.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Out of general curiosity, how do you feel about RPS/RPF that isn't NC-17 or about romance at all?

TBH, I'd still find it rather...creepy. I guess that's the right word for it. Probably not as creepy as NC-17/romance fic, but it's still about real people, and in my mind at least it's still somewhat exploitative.

(BTW, I read an argument in the comments that people who are writing RPS are technically writing about fictional characters -- the personas the people present rather than their actual characters. I suppose it's true, but I still think that good!fic usually, but not always, entails accurate characterization, which is impossible with real people, whereas with fictional characters everything you need is in the text.)

How is that any different than, say, gossip websites/mags? Both are writing fiction, sometimes romantic, about real people. And for the most part, these are individuals who have already chosen to be in the public spotlight, not random private citizens. I'd even argue that RPS is a lot better, because gossip mags are a) often rude and b) purport what's written to be truth or at least close to the truth, whereas RPS is usually written by fans who know and acknowledge that it's not real.

but I still think that good!fic usually, but not always, entails accurate characterization, which is impossible with real people

Depending on who you're writing about, RPS can draw from multiple sources for characterization: books written by or about the individuals, documentaries, specials, interviews, regular appearances, etc. Some of those are more likely to present an "image" than others, so yeah, that would go towards the "writing about the personas" argument, which I think it's valid. But I don't see how that rules out accurate characterizations. It is an accurate characterization of how everyone sees the individual, and unless you know them personally you're not going to know if it's inaccurate.

whereas with fictional characters everything you need is in the text.

ou don't always get everything you need for fictional characters from the text, either. A lot of people like to write about background characters who get very little time in the books. To take a well-known example, say someone is writing epilogue-compliant Harry Potter fanfiction. We only get a glimpse of the new generation of children, and Astoria Malfoy (Draco Malfoy's wife) doesn't have any lines, iirc, just a mention. Yet I've never seen this argument used against fanfiction.

Edited 2009-02-06 22:25 (UTC)

You don't always get everything you need for fictional characters from the text, either. A lot of people like to write about background characters who get very little time in the books.
And even if you're writing about a main character, you still don't always get everything about them. A lot of it is left up to interpretation (Heathcliffe from Wuthering Heights, for instance).

I agree that often there's a lot up to interpretation for fictional characters, but I also think that there are hints one can take in order to really flesh out a character. It's entirely possible to make educated guesses about a character's upbringing, how the setting influenced him/her, etc.

There are indeed hints, but what hints people see and take into account vary. How someone else views Ianto Jones* may be completely different from how I view him, but still be a legitimate interpretation. Unless the character is just flat out obviously nothing like they are in canon, characterization in fic will vary and two fics with different characterization can both be considered good!fic.

*Example chosen at random

Edited 2009-02-06 23:00 (UTC)

You're right. I guess I just have problems with good/accurate characterization being that subjective. Now I'm wondering (and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, I'm just throwing it out there): In order for as many readers as possible to say that something (like a character in fic) is IC, do certain standards/aspects need to stay uniform throughout all interpretations? What's the difference between, say, a villain who's cast in a more sympathetic light, or a character who's cast in a sympathetic light with the villain's traits tacked on?

The problem with the subjective stuff is that sometimes people will write something horribly obviously OOC and claim that it's 100% IC based on their interpretation of the character, even if it's obvious from canon that for the character to do what they've written the story would need a lot more development (or the character would just never do it at all).

I think a villain shed in a sympathetic light is a lot different than a character with villain's traits tacked on, but I don't think it's necessarily an issue of characterization. I think there it's an issue of writing ability. If you can take a villain and shed a sympathetic light on them and keep it believable with what is known from canon, it's better written than just writing a sympathetic character and then tacking on the villain parts afterwords.

I'll concede the point about RPS being like and better than gossip magazines. But I'd still say that if RPS and gossip magazines are pretty much similar, then they are both the cause and result of celebrity worship. RPS is perhaps just celebrity worship sublimated into something that doesn't take itself as seriously.

You're right, there are many sources of characterization to choose from when writing RPS. I'd just prefer to read stories where the writer has actually done a good amount of research.

I find that even if you write about background characters, there are always hints in the canon that you can pick up that probably aid in characterization, even if it's something as simple as, "This character really likes eating chocolate." Say you're writing about a child character who only gets a passing mention and that's it. Theoretically, one can still glean some characterization from, for example, the personalities of his/her parents (which tends to affect upbringing), the setting (where the child is growing up), etc. I don't see anything wrong with taking liberties with characterizing someone who gets no more than a brief mention, of course, but these hints need to be considered. I've found that many fic writers just turn these types of characters into Mary Sues. IMHO, if you really don't have enough info about a character, and you can't avoid turning him/her into a Mary Sue/self-insert, it might be a good idea not to write about him/her.

RPS is perhaps just celebrity worship sublimated into something that doesn't take itself as seriously.

That's probably the case for some fanfiction, yeah. But I don't think all of it qualifies. Just like with other fanfiction, people don't write only about those they think are perfect; they'll write about people who they like but frustrate them sometimes, people with whom they have a love/hate relationship, people who they don't particularly like as individuals at all but do like as part of a group, etc. I've seen a number of stories that are more of a character study of certain celebrities many people don't like. I don't think you categorize everything as "celebrity worship sublimated into something else" any more than you can categorize fictional-person fanfiction as series-worship or similar.

I'd just prefer to read stories where the writer has actually done a good amount of research.

Which is possible with RPS. :)

find that even if you write about background characters, there are always hints in the canon that you can pick up that probably aid in characterization, even if it's something as simple as, "This character really likes eating chocolate."

That's true, but you can't always.

Going back to my previous example from Harry Potter, Astoria Malfoy did not even appear in any previous books. She has one mention in the epilogue of the last book. We have no information on her parents, and while she has a sister, I don't believe we really receive any information on her sister other than her sister's House at Hogwarts. You can probably glean a few things from that information and who she marries, but other than that, you have nothing, literally. And you have no information that supports it being true -- it's all guessing. However, if you are writing about her husband (and son, if applicable), I don't see how you can get by without mentioning her and making a few guesses about her personality.

But when you take those liberties with a background character, which you say you don't see anything wrong with, I fail to see how that is more informed/researched than writing about a real person for whom you have a wealth of information.

Well, you convinced me. I still won't read a lot of RPS if at all, just because there's I always get a bit of cognitive dissonance whenever I read a real person's name in something that's supposed to be fictional, and I'm just not a huge fan of AUs, but that's about all I can argue against it right now. Congrats. XD

(Sorry to have bothered you about this for so long; I was just curious as to what your arguments were.)

That I understand! There are plenty of fandoms, ships, etc., I can't read just because of small personal reasons.

(Sorry to have bothered you about this for so long; I was just curious as to what your arguments were.)

No worries -- it's been a while since I've had a discussion like that and I enjoy it. :)

Again, someone who says it better than me!

Why do people assume everyone who doesn't like RPF reads tabloids? They're both squicky, okay? How many times does it need to be said?

How many times does it need to be said?

Well, considering it hasn't been said AT ALL in this thread, maybe once?

And I didn't assume everyone reads them, but I rarely see ~campaigning~ against gossip websites, etc (which are sorta different from tabloids, at least in the sense that they exist in the same webspace as LiveJournal or even are on LJ) in the same way there is against RPF.

edit: and that's also why I pointed out how, imo, rpf is better than tabloids, in case someone does think tabloids are completely icky, because I don't belief the two are exactly the same.

Edited 2009-02-06 23:32 (UTC)

The gossip sites are far worse, IMO, because they present themselves in such a way that leads some people to believe that what they say might be true.

I remember a gossip site recently spreading the rumor that Michelle Obama is pregnant.

I think in our fandom, there could definitely be a place for ObamaWhiteHouseBaby!fic - the difference is, they wouldn't be trying to get people to BELIEVE it. It would be clearly labeled FICTION.

Like all fiction, it would be all about the "What if?"

Oh yeah, I definitely agree gossip sites are worse. and the difference is, they wouldn't be trying to get people to BELIEVE it is exactly something I said in a previous comment. There's two major differences between gossip sites and fic: one, fic is done by fans, so it's favorable, whereas gossip is much more likely to be catty or malicious; secondly, exactly what you said -- gossip sites make out what they say to be true (or likely to be true) whereas fanfic usually says right up front that none of it is true.

I totally agree, and I think the 'what if' is totally valid - you know, what if our guys (politicians, rock bands, actors, etcetera) were pirates or medieval knights or outer space soldiers or vampires or what have you, is a creative impulse worth enjoying between friends in its own right.

So are sexual fantasies, for that matter. If there's anything pop culture understands well, it's the natural human tendency to wank over attractive famous people. I bet the Romans had a cottage industry where you could buy drawings of your favorite gladiators nude. Maybe there were even proto-slashers who would, for the right price, draw them doing each other for you. I really do not get the pearl-clutchers who act like this is some scary new thing Those Kids Today get up to on That Internet.

(I know I'm talking to a like-minded soul here. I just feel like typing. :D)

I bet the Romans had a cottage industry where you could buy drawings of your favorite gladiators nude. Maybe there were even proto-slashers who would, for the right price, draw them doing each other for you.

You know, I really bet that's true. Look at what they wrote about their gods. And what they put on pottery.

Absolutely. We don't know who those figures on those erotic mosaics and pottery, etc. were supposed to BE. Maybe they were famous theater actors or musicians or athletes or, dare I say it, Senators, of the day.

Creepy? Maybe. Also, still, 2,000 years later, HOT.

1) LMAO and nodding along at this whole thread. :D Exactly this whole discussion.
2) Don't see you enough in the polislash comms lately! You are missed!

I suppose it's true, but I still think that good!fic usually, but not always, entails accurate characterization, which is impossible with real people, whereas with fictional characters everything you need is in the text.

See, I was of this mind for a long time, too. I've just gotten into it after six or seven years in fandom, lol, because I felt the same way. It really does depend for me on how well it's written, and I'm telling you, there are some amazing authors out there amidst the awful and mediocre. It was the 'fictional characters' argument that finally swayed me, because in most cases that's what the author is trying to do (there are crazies who think it's real even in non-RPF fandom, so.)

But the more I've read, the more I actually like the way good authors can take an incomplete media personality and turn it into a three-dimensional character. Not all authors can do this, but when it's done right, there can be a lot of different interpretations and it doesn't have to feel OOC if it's consistent throughout one story.

Ha, anyway. :P

And I've been convinced too just now, LOL. XD I probably still won't read a lot of it, because I tend to prefer fics that are at least somewhat close to "canon" (whether it be a piece of fiction or real life), and I get a case of cognitive dissonance whenever I see a real person's name in something that's supposed to be fictional. But yeah, right now, full props to everything you said. ;-)

LOL, that's pretty awesome, actually. XD

Haha, thanks. :P

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[ SECRET POST #763 ]

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