[ SECRET POST #5357 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5357 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 38 secrets from Secret Submission Post #767.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Writing Thread

[(Anonymous)]

Because I have a thing I need to ask. I may request my subthread to be removed later, bc i don't wanna come across as publicly bashing. I tried asking people on discord but got no response.

Re: Writing Thread

[(Anonymous)]

Does anyone else find writing a satisfying but really lonely hobby?

Re: Writing Thread

[(Anonymous)]

Not really, but the appeal of writing is that it’s something I can do by myself and I don’t have to share unless I really want to.

Re: Writing Thread

[(Anonymous)]

On second thought I got some feedback but i'll ask anyway

Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

So a writer acquaintance of mine told me that I shouldn't use a villain based on Cain in my original work because "basing a villian off a figure in Jewish folklore is a bad look" and something about how the Bible changed things an in the original text he wasn't as much of a villain.

I decided to change him to an old english character but then she started giving me all this stuff that I HAD to read including a thing about dragons (which aren't even in my story) i told another friend and they disagreed and people I talked to on discord disagreed. Would having Cain be one of my villains be offensive? I didn't choose him bc of being Jewish, i chose him because he's one of the oldest mythology figures i could think of and he was kinda perfect for a "kind of evil undead" type figure.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

Perfectly fine imo. Unless you're going out of your way to imply that it's Cain from Jewish folklore, everyone will assume you're basing him on the Bible.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean.. that...that was my original basis.. I grew up Christian so i used something I knew

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes sorry, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. Bad phrasing on my part.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

DW its okay

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

is the writer acquaintance jewish herself?

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

I think?? Or at least she used to be?

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

hm if the issue is something you're worried about i'd discuss it with someone of the actual faith, i know there's a community of jewish people on tumblr that enjoy discussing their faith in relation to fiction (i remember years ago there was that great thread about how viable jewish vampires would be...)


"bad look" is a very non-statement so not sure if that person is the right person for that kind of discussion. i think it could be potentially interesting and at the very least not harmful to learn a little bit about what cain is like in jewish mythos. as non-jew i genuinely can't see the problem with it

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

"Cain is Jewish" is like not even a thing that occurs to most people I'd say

And so many universes, especially vampire/supernatural ones, have used Cain as a mythological villain that his background would be less of a worry to me than being Yet Another Cain Villain Story unless you're doing something wildly different with it from the other 9000 Cain Villain Stories

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean... I have him as one of a trio of legendary undead figures who are plotting to engineer a war that will lead to more undead soldiers to eventually connquer the afterlife.

It's not really a story focused on him, he's just an aspect of it. Honestly more emphasis character wise is on his cohorts, a welsh former witch and a greek mad alchemist who committed a huge act of human experimentation with alchemy. (and said Greek alchemist's descendent is a major ally character to the heroes)

Honestly Cain gets the least focus of the three.

SA Addendum

[(Anonymous)]

Among the denizens of the afterlife, Cain is called the King of Liches, because he is the first lich.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I just meant so many stories have Cain as part of their mythos it that unless you do something drastically different it won't stand out or be notable to anybody, really

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

offensive? no.

cliche? yes. there have been tons of commercially available (successful and obscure alike) properties that went to the Bible for their mythology and literal characters. Cain would be boring, and I don't care how fresh you think your take is, it's probably still boring to some degree. At the very least, it's not original enough.

If you want old mythology, anything Epic of Gilgamesh and/or Egyptian is probably older than these codified Torah figures anyway, and less easily recognizable unless you're writing something that is a deliberate Bible rip-off, like "oho you think you know Cain? Well I have a new take on him" which...again, might not be as original as you think it is.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean I chose him because he was the oldest person I could think of which suits his position in the story as the "King of Liches" . I needed someone older than dirt and he fit the bill.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean the guy who invented fucking murder is kinda perfect for being the king of a group of the most evil undead.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

I meeeean, I'm a bit leery about straight up liches (as in using the name and all) because of their use of Jewish coding in stuff like D&D, so hearing a Torah figure as a "king of Liches" doesn't help that association.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

Ok, so in book community circles, fyi, there are going to be like 3 or 4 issues related to Judaism that could get you flak. 1) Blood libel and anything related to it. (Using the blood of non-jews for ritualistic purposes.) 2) Naming a character the name of God. (The one that starts with an Ado- and they don't say.) 3) Stereotypical "hook nosed, sallow skinned" look. Think Goblins or Snape in Harry Potter. Or 4) supporting Israel over the Palestinians even in passing/making jokes about the nazi camps/Anne Frank. (The last one here is anything from going 'my jewish character takes a trip to Israel to learn about her heritage,' to passing in character dialog.)

You aren't doing any of these things as far as I can tell. Be aware ACTUAL published authors have DONE THESE THINGS within the last oh, twelve months. Though I don't think it really hurt their SALES. You can go to Jess Owen's youtube channel and her bookcommunitea videos and track them down or google or whatever to see more what you should avoid. The twitter villain of the day is getting out of control in some aspects. Then on the other hand, there are some very tone deaf authors out there too. So, research, form your own opinions.

Even World of Darkness used Cain as the "first" vampire/lich. IMO, I don't think there should be any problems as long as you stay away from blood libel. (Aka blood magic.) Stingy Jack (who is Irish) might be more original, but he might not be old enough folklore wise for what you want.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

Uhhhh....

My story does have homunculi that are similar to FMA homunculi but no Jewish characters are really involved in creating them. Even Cain.

Is...is that bad?

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

(Cozy werewolf Anon)

as long as the Jewish characters aren't making them... i don't think so. Make it clear and hopefully no one would have a knee jerk reaction.

Blood libel is very specific. So you should be fine. You're running up into the tropes of the fantasy/horror genre when using specific folklore origins and stuff that isn't as well known as it could be b/c it's been around only since WW2. (At least the blood libel stuff. People have been trying to make jews the villains long before that.)

Go with your comfort level here. If you're too worried, take it out. If not, go ahead. I doubt using Cain will get you added scrutiny, honestly. Especially in the horror/vampire genre. Especially since Israel didn't really exist until the Sons of Jacob. It's kind of being silly cautious. But like you, I grew up Christian and like "He murdered his brother, wandered away and died" is the extent of his involvement in the Bible. Since you know, protestants cut out the book of Enoch. And using Cain in books/media is older than Shakespeare at this point.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

...yeah, I agree with most of the above. The cast majority of people do not think of 'Jewish' as Cain's distinguishing attribute. I even had to pause a moment when I read you post because I immediately thought 'But he's in the Bible?' before clicking that, yeah, Christians and Jews share origins and a lot of old stories.

Re: Question about Jewish and Biblical Folklore.

[(Anonymous)]

Right? As someone who is neither Christian nor Jewish, like, it wouldn't surprise me, knowing how much overlapping there is among the Abrahamic religions, but I also think the Christians have definitely cornered the market on Cain in pop culture.