[ SECRET POST #5854 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5854 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 40 secrets from Secret Submission Post #838.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. https://i.imgur.com/WT9zBq7.png

[(Anonymous)]

totally agree, because it just becomes an endless, sad loop. "only people of X culture should write about Y," but nobody of X is interested in writing about Y, so Y goes unwritten-about, somebody says gosh someone should write about Y? and then the culture police return. around and around and around. if more X people were interested in, let alone capable of, writing about their thing, they would have by now, no?

[feotakahari]

The usual rejoinder there is “you’re not reading their books.” Or if there isn’t a particular book to point to, “publishers aren’t publishing their books.” But I don’t think reducing production is the right answer. I mean, there were white people who didn’t listen to songs by black people, and then they got into Eminem because he’s white, and some of them actually moved on to Jay-Z and grew their tastes a bit!

[(Anonymous)]

Do you understand that there's a huge difference between cultural appreciation openly shared between groups of people and cultural appropriation taken from people who didn't want it shared? Like, racists choosing not to listen to black music is not the same at all.

[(Anonymous)]

(To be clear this isn't directed at feotakahari in particular, it just came to mind after reading their comment.)

To your first couple sentences, it reminds me of a secret we had a while back where someone was reading fantasy books by POC and felt they were medieval fantasy tropes with a new coat of paint. So, they didn't really see the point I guess.

Trad pub is really slow to react to new trends and so are readers of trad fantasy etc. So these books with comfy tropes with new coats of paint are important to both convince the industry to print more POC culture themed books and to get the audiences primed for them so they'll sell more than 12 copies. We can't have Iron Widow without first DBZ coming to America, then Asian themed fantasies from white authors sometimes masquerading as POC (yes, I know of at least one) to having a live action Mulan which got Iron Widow's authors social media going to her winning pitch wars and getting a trad publishing contract later.

It's a process. And at the same time, we need to think about as authors ethically when we write, are we using an open culture thing or a closed culture thing and if it is closed culture, we should probably respect it. And if it's open culture, do the research so you don't end up with Twilight's sparkly vampires, and not so werewolf, wolf shapeshifters. Or Patterson's written as a white man, POC Alex Cross. Mostly, we need to listen to the cultures the ideas came from and respect their wishes. It's polite.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing is, if white writers would bother to actually research this monster, there ARE Native American sources on the matter that describe it, what it means, and why the tribes this monster comes from are so uncomfortable with it being used so casually. But no white writer actually wants to do that research, so they just see the name and the vague concept and go "oh neat! antlers!" and don't give a shit.

[(Anonymous)]

Writers of all ethnic backgrounds do this to all monsters from all over the world though, why should Native American monsters be exempt?

[(Anonymous)]

This is exactly what leads to things dying out and disappearing forever, too. I've been watching it happen with a traditional handicraft from a particular culture where they're extremely rigid about who is allowed to learn and practice it.

There are literally 5 artisans left in the entire country. If they don't loosen their restrictions on who is allowed to learn and practice this art, it's going to die out completely within the next 20-30 years and then the tradition will be gone.

[(Anonymous)]

In the case of the secret image, to put it with your comparison, it's like saying the artisans should be forced to share it against their will, and the end result will be an art form that isn't what they carefully passed on at all. Grabbing something that isn't yours in the name of "preserving it" is what fills the museums of colonists, not what actually preserves cultures.

[(Anonymous)]

Late comment, but sea silk?

[(Anonymous)]

Not going to touch the other stuff in this secret, but one of the main issue with mythological creature in the image is that some guy's Original Monster Donut Steel started to rewrite actual lore and history over that of actual native American mythology. And it still continues to this day, where even nonfiction mythology books will have some white guy's original creation instead of legitimate sources.

[feotakahari]

Sometimes I see people make up new Norse weapons or Christian demons or whatever, and they get adopted into the “canon” other stories call upon, and people just treat that as part of the process of mythmaking. Someone made things up in the past, and someone made more things up in the present. I’ve never seen anyone say only Norwegians should make up Norse weapons, or only Christians should make up new demons.

[(Anonymous)]

there is a big difference when it's white cultures adding stuff to their own mythology, entirely another when it's a white group talking over a non-white and historically margianised group by said white people. pretending that they're the same thing is incredibly stupid.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, in this particular monster's case, it's not like it's a vague "no touching" warning--it's people inside the culture it comes from asking "hey can you not keep writing about this part of our culture, especially when you're not understanding it" and people from the dominant culture that has been actively destroying them for centuries saying "nah, it's cool". I feel like the specifics matter in what's being asked.

[feotakahari]

I looked this up. It’s a fucking wendigo. You cannot be serious that this thing is more “important” or “sacred” or whatever than when Monster Musume or whatever the fuck reinterprets the minotaur as a sexy cow-girl.

(Also, Patriot the last wendigo is one of the best antagonists in Arknights, and I will see no criticism of him.)

[(Anonymous)]

I've read lore about wendigo occasionally, and did about an hour of Googling on it just now particularly trying to find any statements on why it shouldn't be written about by just anyone. I haven't found any. Most of what I've always heard is that the problem is the misrepresentation of what it originally is, but not that the act of writing about without being from one of the peoples it belongs to is inherently wrong. If "Don't write about it" is being said everywhere by experts from these peoples and I'm too dumb to find it, I believe in respecting that, and now that I've even heard that it is I wouldn't do it just in case. But I also feel like it's really not as easy to know you're not supposed to write about it if you do even basic research, as is the vibe I'm getting from your comment.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing is, I believe you can make art about anything.

But, if you choose to make art about some things in some ways, then that's hugely disrespectful, and people have a right to judge you based on what you are using your art to do and say.

I think the guy who made Piss Christ had every right to do that. And Christians have a right to be hugely offended by it. But the thing is? The artist knows Piss Christ is offensive, and that's the point. It's making a statement about what is sacred, what does or does not deserve respect, about cultural forces. Personally, I think that's interesting and valuable art.

But making art that's super disrespectful to the Algonquin people and their heritage isn't making a statement about that, because the Algonquin people have never had the kind of cultural domination that makes disrespecting their wishes anything more than just being kind of mean and shitty to a culture survivng centuries of oppression and genocide.

So you can do it. But what are you saying with it that's more meaningful than "I don't respect these people?" Not much, and whatever it is, there are definitely other pieces of folklore you could use for it. And other people are allowed to judge you for that kind of choice.

TLDR I think the specific issue of this monster (and certain other things closed-cultures have asked to be left alone) is very much the arts equivalent of "you were so busy finding out if you COULD that you didn't ask if you SHOULD." You can. It's not illegal and it shouldn't be illegal, because this isn't something the state should arbitrate. But if you want to be a thoughtful artist and a decent person, probably you shouldn't.

[meadowphoenix]

look, the globe is not a utopia and is mostly capitalistic so instead of feeling like there is an actual taboo going on, understand this as "you can do X, if you want the smoke"

if what you really trying to say here is that there shouldn't be smoke, and that the kerfluffle that occurs when a marginalized group says, "fuck you, author" means authors who want mainstream success say "this subject isn't for me," that's life with other people! those are merits. the merits of a story are also in its effect on the the audience and the audience's culture. those are the merits. i don't know what everyone thinks arts are, but pretending that the impact of narratives of any sort can be isolated to their skill and not the context in which they exist and so is the only judgeable criterion? lmao bullshit, get a grip.

but like...people are out here writing nazi-jewish love stories. they're out here writing barely disguised A-team fanfiction but set during the trail of tears as christian redemption stories for the soldiers who killed the indigenous. they're out here. they're doing it. they're getting published. they're finding audiences. if you don't want smoke, don't set cultural fires.

[(Anonymous)]

This whole comment section is pretty much people who already knew that Native American people have requested that non-native people stop using the wendigo in their fiction, and people who are just finding that out.

[(Anonymous)]

It sounds like a lot of people have actually heard the request, but have decided that it doesn't matter and they should be allowed to do whatever they want.

[flibbertygigget]

Eh, this feels like a very case by case basis thing, but with Native American culture and stuff in particular it always feels especially nasty to me.

Like, between the insane amount of displacement, the residential schools, and the fact that NAs weren't given freedom of religion until fucking 1978, I'm inclined to go with "non-NAs shouldn't touch NA stuff with a ten foot pole". Especially when a bunch of tribes have made it ABUNDANTLY clear that there are certain culturally and religiously significant things that they don't want people watering down and profiting off of. Like, they've been shit on enough, there are some reservations that still don't fully have fucking electricity in 2023, the least non-Native people can do is fucking listen when the Algonquin and some Ojibwa in particular say "stop taking, watering down, and turning this part of our living culture into something unrecognizable".

[(Anonymous)]

safest thing to do is change up some of the lore of the creature and give it a different name.

[(Anonymous)]

In this exact example totally!
This monster is fun, but you don't need to use the name people asked you not to use. Especially since it's not even supposed to look like this

[(Anonymous)]

To me it's like comedy. You can make jokes about anything- but punching down with your jokes still makes you a dick.

[(Anonymous)]

Yup, totally agree.