fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6018 ]

[ SECRET POST #6018 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6018 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 16 secrets from Secret Submission Post #860.
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If this is about cdramas, then it's apples and oranges. People aren't complaining about cdrama leads portrayed as child-like as part of their character development arc, they're complaining about a rather sexist, one-note stereotype that plagues female characters in cdramas, period, with not much diversity or range in female characters in general. Context matters.

It's not about c-dramas specifically.

But if you want to narrow it down: complaining about immaturity and a high-pitched voice for only one gender in the artistic tradition that fielded Tang Fan and many other nebbish, immature, unaware-of-personal-boundaries, squeaky little men is... definitely A Take.

And. While gender dynamics are certainly a bit skewed in c-dramas, there's also a solid showing in warriors, generals, doctors, high-powered businesswomen, politically astute court monsters, sect leaders, cops, quiet women who are just so terribly nice, young idiots who are about to meet Personal Growth like getting their ankles stuck in the tracks with a train coming, engineers, e-sport pros...

You're not talking apples and oranges, you're just cherry-picking.

Tang Fan gets to be a genius savant Sherlock Holmes character. He has a higher pitched voice, that's true. I wouldn't say his character is to the same degree as some childish female leads, but I suspect that what he does exhibit in terms of similar traits is perhaps down to the fact that Sleuth of the Ming Dynasty is a BL adaptation and it's not an uncommon trope for one half of the m/m ship to be portrayed as physically weaker, less mature, more dependent upon their partner, etc. Someone else can unpack why, but I suspect it's down to a toxic stereotype where one half of a gay male couple is treated as "the woman" of the relationship.

"many other nebbish, immature, unaware-of-personal-boundaries, squeaky little men" - I'm genuinely curious. Which male leads of which cdramas fit this description? IME, there's more range in male leads than there are in female leads. One or two childish female leads wouldn't be a problem if there was wider representation in the genre. But it seems weird to act like childish female leads aren't a very common thing in cdramas just because occasionally a male character also behaves immaturely.

"I'm genuinely curious. Which male leads of which cdramas fit this description?"

Tientsin Mystic and My Roommate Is A Detective off the top of my head. (I found them too grating to get past more than a couple of episodes each.) And I'm sure those leads did have skills, on account of how protagonists often do. In Psych Hunter, one of the MLs was a damn baby. (A cute baby, but still.) In Blood of Youth there was the young idiot who turns up at the inn right at the start, I think he was supposed to be a supporting character, though? In the movie Under the Three Rivers the love interest was a very pathetic (but cute) straight guy and the heroine and her openly gay bff got all the cool action scenes.

And I repeat: there is a wide representation of female characters. You're cherrypicking when you could be eating an entire orchard.

Try Princess Silver, where the female lead was trained as an assassin and the supporting cast is rife with other female assassins and spies, and also delicate-young-misses, maids, noble-women trying to get through complicated politics, and yes, some squeaky girls, two of which broke my bitter black heart before the story was done.

Song of Glory, again with an assassin-heroine, this time getting suddenly dumped into a respectable family and having to open out her worldview.

Or The Long Ballad, which has a fairly mannish FL, and a very girly 2nd FL, and they are both written with love and compassion and end up with the kind of relationship they *want*.

Or Stand By Me | Dream of Chang'an, which contrasts a young-idiot-with-a-sword FL against a cool-and-manipulative 2nd FL, again, with both written with love and compassion.

Or Oh My General, which reverses the gender dynamics right out of the gate.

Ooh, The Murder at Kairoutei, if you want slightly older businesswomen being utterly fab or nasty pieces of work, depending...

In Three Body, we spend a lot of time on an elderly scientist and the doomy backstory she survived with courage and fortitude.

Even Love Between Fairy and Devil, which got roasted here a while back has a) character development for the squeaky FL, b) multiple women in positions of authority and respect, and c) a supporting romance where the girl ends up ditching the guy she adores in favour of her career and everybody's happy with that.

And that's just off the top of my head.

It's like you're pointing out the very worst version of a stock character trope, insisting on making it gendered, and then declaring that it is Representative of Everything. Which is... certainly A Take.

I'm willing to keep an open mind about your examples, but the two I'm familiar with don't really seem to fit, IMO. The lead in My Roommate is a Detective is annoying, but I don't really see how he's on par with the general complaints about childish female leads. Likewise in Blood of Youth, if you're talking about Wu Jie, he's clearly young, idealistic and maybe a little annoying at times, but he does not act like a little boy.

"It's like you're pointing out the very worst version of a stock character trope, insisting on making it gendered, and then declaring that it is Representative of Everything. Which is... certainly A Take."

It would definitely be "... A Take" if I'd actually said that. But I didn't. I'm guessing this is one of those topics where you're bringing some baggage from all the previous (probably contentious?) discussions you've had with other people, elsewhere on the internet and now you're a touch sensitive about any criticism of female characters in cdramas because you lump them all in the same category.

Yeah, I think I am sensitive. And honestly, I'm not the only one bringing baggage to this conversation.

But the people who jumped down my throat as soon as I pointed out Luke Skywalker is a goddamn child for two-thirds of his main story arc are not... de-escalating anything.

Nor are the people - not you, elsewhere in the thread - declaring that the only possible story arc for a girl is wifedom, when that's blatantly untrue.

Thank you for taking the time to ask for some examples.

I get it. I think it's been a controversial topic here and elsewhere. It's just... when you get to the point where you're reading stuff that you think the other person has said when they haven't said that at all, it might be time to step away from the discussion. You're still interpreting people's disagreement with your opinion like it's a personal attack, and I don't think it is.

You literally asked for examples of what I was talking about.

I gave you examples.

And then you told me I was over-sensitive.

I don't think you were making a personal attack. I still don't. But it wasn't me that narrowed this down to c-dramas in the first place. Nor was I saying that high-pitched girls with zero personality don't exist - in c-dramas or elsewhere. All I'm saying is that 'squeaky and immature' is a trait that exists in both genders, and most of said characters grow up a bit by the end of their story. And instead of actually engaging with those examples (except for MRIAD, fair enough), you turned the discussion over to 'feelings'.

And you're not wrong - I am getting cranky. But. You don't seem to be listening to what I'm saying either.

So. Sorry for coming across as defensive. This is, yeah, a sensitive subject for a lot of people.

Thank you for the examples. I didn't say that I thought you were being sensitive about the examples, though.

I specifically noted that when you claimed that I was taking "very worst version of a stock character trope, insisting on making it gendered, and then declaring that it is Representative of Everything", I hadn't actually said that at all, and that was to me, an indication that you're taking with other people, elsewhere on the internet and applying them to me, a person who hasn't expressed the opinions you're attributing to me. Baggage. I'm not doubting that you've had stressful arguments with other people, somewhere else. But I'm not them.

I do think I'm listening to what you're saying, but I don't entirely agree and I've addressed specifics already.

"I specifically noted that when you claimed that I was taking "very worst version of a stock character trope, insisting on making it gendered, and then declaring that it is Representative of Everything", I hadn't actually said that at all"

Okay. That's fair. I did read into your words there, and I'm sorry.

When you say MRIAD guy is a savant so it's okay that he's a bit flashy and pushy, or that Blood of Youth boy is young so it's okay if he's a bit ridiculous... those aren't traits that female characters lack. They're often young, and they often have some kind of talent when they enter a story. There's not a helluva lot of difference there. Uhm. Is what I'm saying making sense?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #6018 ]

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