Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2023-06-28 06:59 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2023-06-28 06:59 pm
[ SECRET POST #6018 ]
⌈ Secret Post #6018 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 16 secrets from Secret Submission Post #860.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-28 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)" A moment ago, Jiang Cheng was certain that this person was Wei WuXian, and all of the blood in his body started to boil. Yet, now, Zidian was clearly telling him that he wasn’t. Zidian definitely wouldn’t deceive him or make a mistake, so he quickly calmed himself and thought I should first find an excuse to take him back and use every possible method to get information out of him. It’s impossible for him to not confess anything or give himself away. I’ve done things like this in the past anyways. After thinking it through, he made a gesture. The disciples understood his intention and came over. "
This is the narrator, not people spreading rumors or other people's view point. What exactly where the disciples going to do? I don't think they were going to give who they thought was MXY some money and send him on his way with their well wishes.
“It’s not the first time my uncle did such a thing. He has never let any of them go, even if it was possible that he caught the wrong ones.“ - Jin Ling
So, you think Jin Ling is, what, lying? About an uncle that he LOVES?
" Jiang Cheng spoke grimly, “Break his legs? Haven’t I told you? If you see this sort of evil and crooked practice, kill the cultivator and feed him to your dogs!”
Wei WuXian couldn’t even attempt to grab his donkey, backing away at rapid speed. He thought that, after so many years, no matter how much hatred Jiang Cheng had held for him, it would have disappeared long ago. He didn’t expect that not only did it not disappear, it became richer….With someone backing him up, Jin Ling’s attacks became more aggressive.” "
So, what do you think Jiang Cheng is encouraging his TEENAGED NEPHEW to commit MURDER over... ??? and Jiang Cheng has done this for how long??
Jiang Cheng tried to kill Wen Ning, the man who freed Jiang Cheng from the Wens and recovered his parent's bodies. The person to whom Jiang Cheng owes a debt that he NEVER repays.
Jiang Cheng struck "Mo Xuanyu" after Zidian told him it wasn't WWX because he was doing demonic cultivation and then Jin Ling frees WWX from JC because JL knows what JC does to demonic cultivators.
And like, that comes after a scene where Jiang Cheng, KNOWING that WWX is deathly afraid of dogs, sics a dog on him. I'm sorry if this has happened to you, but please don't down play it. It Is Torture.
Like, it's FINE to like the character. I like JC, too. But be real about what his character is. He is not a wooby.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 12:00 am (UTC)(link)except the donghua maybe cause they just forgot that part
you can hate him or love him or anything else but "he murders his own brother" is not only factually not true, the reveal that it's not true is like, the dramatic crux of the entire plot
and anyone grumping that he does do that either didn't finish, or is an idiot, or is a liar who likes to make up fake crimes for characters they don't like when there's so many juicy crimes they actually did do
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 12:27 am (UTC)(link)That gets into a big philosophical discussion. The reason WWX died was to keep the amulet out of JGS's hands. The cause of that is the siege on the Burial Mounds. Jiang Cheng lead the siege on the Burial Mounds, thus causing WWX to destroy the amulet, which causes WWX death.
In philosophy the proximal cause of WWX's death is destroying the seal, but the ultimate cause of his death is the siege led by Jiang Cheng. Like covid denialists will cite people has having died from pneumonia, the proximate cause of death, and ignore the "due to covid" part, the ultimate cause of death.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)that completely ignores 100% of the juicy character themes that is is WWX maybe losing control of his shit in his trauma-and-demonic-energy-fueled downward spiral, maybe committing suicide out of grief and guilt and not being able to face the tragic consequences of his own mingled heroism and hubris
the person doing the woobifying amidst this morally grey hopelessly tangled heart-rending tragedy is you
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 12:02 am (UTC)(link)1. He has a very good reason to fucking hate demonic cultivation. A few reasons, actually. Even barring the "is this WWX" angle, he knows it's a Bad Thing, demonstrably. Yeah, he's gonna be HELLA HARSH about it. It's not a good trait, sure, but it's not damning.
2. Oh no. Jiang Cheng is being dramatically angry and everyone knows it.
3. "Tried to kill Wen Ning" overlooks the part where Wen Ning is a walking corpse and all of the horrific shit that that entails. No, it's not Wen Ning's fault, and yes JC owed a debt to the /living/ WN, but it's also not a completely out-there response.
And 4. I love WWX and it REALLY sucks when people downplay his fear, but, related to point 1, I actually do think it's fair for JC to be an asshole in that scene. Is it nice? No, of course not. It's petty and cruel. But it's not like it comes from nowhere.
I completely agree that JC isn't a woobie. But he's also not a monster.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 12:13 am (UTC)(link)The whole point of the novel was that what WWX was doing WASN'T demonic cultivation. It was the Ghost Path, which in that philosophy was actually better for the dead than regular cultivation as he liberated more souls into the reincarnation cycle that would otherwise have been completely destroyed. JC went after people who tried to do what WWX did or just mimic'd his general vibe. Just because he and the rest of the world couldn't tell the difference doesn't mean that anyone he went after was a) actually practicing REAL demonic cultivation and b) did anything to deserve death, because no one deserves torture, which the narrative ADMITS he does.
Just because Wen Ning was dead doesn't mean he wasn't IN THERE. I dunno if you noticed, but reverence and service to the dead is kinda a big deal in Chinese culture. There's a whole thing of the fierce corpses causing problems because they weren't given proper rites and debts weren't paid. And not only was he dead but Wen Ning was STILL IN THERE. It doesn't negate JC's debt to him, regardless of if WN is alive or dead. For this culture it is ABSOLUTELY a completely out-there response.
It is not fair. Torture is NEVER justified. That scene was a torture scene. I agree it is petty and cruel and it doesn't come out of nowhere. It is also torture. We have actual textual scenes of JC torturing someone. He tortures people. Fact. End of story.
I also agree, he's not a monster (in his society). All I said was that I don't want to read about a main character who does things like that, but OP should do what they like! It's not like I even said that OP was a horrible person for wanting it. Just saying that I didn't. And people have jumped in to try to make JC into someone he's not.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 01:44 am (UTC)(link)IE being an awful bitch to your (to his knowledge!) dick of a brother isn't the same as breaking the Geneva conventions.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 01:56 am (UTC)(link)I haven't said nice things about JC because that isn't the topic of conversation. I've said repeatedly that I LIKE JC and that he's a morally grey character (i.e. not "absolute in a blank box morality"). So please don't accuse me of making a statement I haven't. I've said he's not a monster. I will say he's not an irredeemable villain. I like his role in the novel. He's just not someone I would want to read about as a protagonist because I don't like reading stories that focus on people like him.
There's a massive difference between being an "awful bitch to his dick of a brother" and torture. If you want to go the Geneva Conventions route: A 1999 United Nations-approved manual lists the "arranging of conditions for attacks by animals such as dogs" as a "torture method." And that's just for general people. JC knew WWX had cynophopbia and could not logic out that JC would not ACTUALLY let the dog attack him. It's torture. Full stop.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 02:05 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 12:39 am (UTC)(link)... has OP or anyone in this thread called him a wooby, though?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 01:40 am (UTC)(link)It's in the secret.
"He's so well set up as an underdog - unwanted child who has to work hard for everything, but is doomed to be overshadowed by his golden child prodigy step-brother... his entire family is dead, his clan barely hanging on, he has no support, his only alliance is a tenuous one with the most asshole clan - he has to rebuild everything with nothing but handicaps on his side. And then post-time skip we find out he succeeded."
woobify. to make a character that is canonically morally wrong or grey into a cute little guy that you feel sorry for.
Ok, so there's a lot to unpack here.
"unwanted child" - This is a very common reading, and I mostly agree. That Jiang Cheng himself is unwanted by his father - but not by his mother. It strikes me as interesting that they only have two children, and the eldest is a girl. Given the relationship between JFM and Madam Yu, I have no doubt that they specifically were trying to a male heir. So in that sense, JC is wanted, but no one is gonna all the Jiangs the parents of the year. Also, JFM never actually adopts WWX. For all that we keep calling them brothers, no one outside of Jiang Cheng and Jiang Yanli actually considered WWX anything but a servant. He is not in line to inherit anything, so Jiang Cheng cannot be passed over.
"underdog" "who has to work hard for everything" - Now that is just wrong. Dude is privileged. Dude is the heir to a major sect. He's GOING to be sect leader no matter what happens. Yes, he works hard, especially with his mother breathing down his neck. But he's not working hard to be a good sect leader, or to be able to defend the common people. He's working hard to try and beat the competition, to win fame and respect. This is why he always loses. When he becomes sect leader, he doesn't direct his sect into protecting his people, or securing his territory from monsters and walking corpses. He only takes the jobs that will give him fame. That's why he's feared instead of respected by his civilian population.
"his entire family is dead" - Eh, he loses his parents to war. His sister gives her life for his brother. And he blames all of those deaths on said brother, who actually had nothing to do with it, and would have given his own life to stop any of those deaths. And that blame is what leads him to try to kill the last person of his family (aside from Jin Ling). So I rate this: Mostly true, but lacks context.
"his clan barely hanging on, he has no support, his only alliance is a tenuous one with the most asshole clan - he has to rebuild everything with nothing but handicaps on his side." - His clan is barely hanging on in that he has no heir, but his SECT is still a major sect. The novel also directly states that the Jiangs were in a very good position and were considered very strong post-war thanks to WWX's contributions to the war. Not exactly nothing but handicaps. Yes, Jiang Cheng rebuilds Lotus Pier, but he rebuilds it with what WWX won for him.
Jiang Cheng is a very morally grey and complex character who really caused a lot of his own problems. A lot of this secret is overlooking a lot of this in order to make him seem more stoic and worthy of sympathy, a victim of circumstance instead of his own decisions. They woobify him.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 02:08 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-29 02:16 am (UTC)(link)I don't think woobification is what OP is proposing at all. Obviously it's cool if you dislike JC, but this doesn't seem like a legit issue here.