[ SECRET POST #6029 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6029 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 31 secrets from Secret Submission Post #862.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

02. https://i.imgur.com/KVFUlLy.png

[feotakahari]

Everything American does this since September 2001, and I hate it.

[(Anonymous)]

What are some examples of this happening in Star Trek?

[(Anonymous)]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Torture

[(Anonymous)]

So by my count based on this, there are 3 episodes where Our Heroes use torture? A Voyager episode (Equinox pt 2), an Enterprise episode (Anomaly), and a SNW episode (the season 2 premier).

That doesn't seem like it happens all the time. And it also isn't clear how effective those episodes portray the torture as being.

[(Anonymous)]

Deep Space Nine had at least one. IIRC, Garak had Odo locked in a room with a device that prevented him from returning to his liquid form. It’s framed explicitly as torture so that Odo will admit whatever secret he’s keeping. And it works. (I think it was something to do with how he sometimes wished he could be with his people, despite the fact that they were all awful.)

[(Anonymous)]

Here are some specifics: 1. In the Voyager episode, Janeway leaves a prisoner tied up in the cargo bay to be eaten by aliens to get him to talk. Chakotay risks his life and rescues the prisoner. The prisoner does provide information to Chakotay, who is later relieved of duty for defying Janeway.
2. In the Enterprise episode, Archer throws a prisoner in the airlock and starts decompressing it, telling him he'll be dead in 40 seconds. Prisoner talks.
3. While escaping an enemy ship where he was being held captive, M'Benga (while on stimulants and possibly having war flashbacks) corners a Klingon and flat out beats the information he needs out of him. I am frankly iffy as to whether a prisoner beating one of their captors during an escape attempt counts as torture, but there you go.

Of the 3 instances, the one that is most clearly and obviously torture is the second one, and it's also the one that was the least effective.

[(Anonymous)]

Looking at you, Discovery, looking at you.

[(Anonymous)]

Is that really big in the Star Trek franchise? I can't recall any scenes but I haven't watched any of the new stuff (I basically stopped at Voyager).

But just in general yes, I totally agree. I wish all media would stop using torture for fun and profit.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it stands out more on Trek because it is so at odds with the tone the show tries to paint itself in. Although, having said that, DS9 did love itself committing its war crimes unironically.

[(Anonymous)]

DA I think DS9 has its characters commit war crimes but I can't think of any where it's supposed to be morally unproblematic

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT - yeah, the thing with DS9 is that the majority of protagonists aren't good, per se, but they're (mostly) trying to be better while also being involved in a serious of morally-complicated situations.

They, um. Hit some snags.

[(Anonymous)]

Is that really big in the Star Trek franchise?

No. It's not. Various villains torture to show the audience that they're evil, and maybe once every 12 years or so a hero in a ST franchise will torture someone, or flirt with the idea, either to show that they're on the precipice of some sort of moral breakdown or because the writers didn't think through the implications of their actions particularly well (depends on the series).

[greghousesgf]

the only Star Trek torture thing I can think of was Picard getting tortured by Cardassians in that one NG ep and it didn't work. I hated that ep. I wanted Worf to save him.

[(Anonymous)]

And that episode is very strongly anti-torture! Amnesty International was consulted about it, the torture was shown as effectively dehumanising without being effective about getting information, and it's hard to watch but a good episode.

I really wish they'd learned their own lesson.

[(Anonymous)]

I admit haven't seen every Star Trek series, but you sound like another victim of the "depiction = endorsement" mindset.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Mmhm.

[(Anonymous)]

You don’t know. Maybe they’ve been cheering for the Cardassians and the Romulans the whole time.

[(Anonymous)]

Totally agree!

I'm so mad. You can make someone say what you want. "Yes I killed Kennedy" or "I'll sign that confession. What am I guilty of again?" but it is absolutely useless for discovering truth. There is no way to know if/when someone is giving you the real story without knowing the real story ahead of time. Most of the How To Spot A Liar tips are just signs of stress and stress doesn't indicate guilt. And even if you could magically tell when someone is lying you can't tell when they're mistaken.

I just. WE KNOW THIS!! Fucking stop putting it in fiction!

[(Anonymous)]

So, do you have examples of the heroes in Star Trek using torture to get what they want all the damn time? Because so far we all agree that torture is bad, but are still having trouble figuring out wtf is going on with this secret.

[(Anonymous)]

This reminds me about Abu Ghraib and waterboarding torture scandal. I hate political secrets here. Gotta say that OP's full of shit and it's happening rn covered by agencies. Ineffective, my ass.

[(Anonymous)]

I am so confused by this response lol

What you're saying is that torture works and OP is wrong and overly political for criticizing it?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm saying it's still used so it works well enough for agencies and army to use it.

OP is too political for posting about torture on fs. Fandom and effectiveness of torture is not related. I watched the leaks and I have a good imagination so to me it's like casually mentioning r@pe without any warning.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm saying it's still used so it works well enough for agencies and army to use it.

That doesn't prove that it works. It's also possible that agencies and army that use it are fucking stupid. Or that they're using it for some reason other than gathering information.

OP is too political for posting about torture on fs. Fandom and effectiveness of torture is not related.

If characters use torture in a show with a fandom, it's clearly related.

[(Anonymous)]

I watched the leaks and I have a good imagination so to me it's like casually mentioning r@pe without any warning.

There should have been a tag for torture before the secret, or it should have been saved for Friday, sure. I can agree with that sentiment, because torture should be warned for like r@pe. But that’s not OP’s fault. I speak from experience when I say that even trying to add warnings to the comment secrets doesn’t guarantee that they’ll be applied to the secret, or be put under a warning above the secret by Case. Things slip through the cracks sometimes. It’s unfortunate, but it happens.

People bring up politics all the time here, both in fandom and in the general threads. It’s not against any rules. Especially when it’s a part of the fandom the secret is about. And it definitely is here. Everything is political in some way, but Star Trek especially is, and pretending otherwise is being disingenuous. OP did nothing wrong by making this secret, they’re not being “too political”, or bringing politics where it doesn’t belong. You’re the one who’s full of shit, honestly. You sound kind of similar here to the people on the right who are all for politics they like and agree with, but the moment it’s politics they disagree with or find uncomfortable, it’s “Don’t bring politics into this, everything is too political these days!”. The same people that complain that people “bring politics” into works like Persona 5, while ignoring that the work is inherently political, because they’d unaware of or are actively ignoring that part. And complaining about a Star Trek secret being political is just as egregious.

Just because the government does something doesn’t mean it’s effective or humane. What an absurdly ignorant thing to say. The evidence of it’s ineffectiveness far outweigh evidence to the contrary, but the government ignores that evidence. That’s the problem. They do things like that a lot, when the people at the top feel like the ineffective and/or unethical method benefits them more than improving the system they’ve been using since before research has been done about whether it’s effective or not.