fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #900 ]

[ SECRET POST #900 ]

⌈ Secret Post #900 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

__________________________________________________

102.

[Scrubs]

__________________________________________________

103.

[Daniel Radcliffe & Tom Felton]

__________________________________________________

104.

[Phantom of the Opera]

__________________________________________________

105.

[Vampire Knight, Twilight]

__________________________________________________

106.

[Fallout 3]

__________________________________________________

107.

__________________________________________________

108.

[Trek/SPN]

__________________________________________________

109.

[Little Shop of Horrors]

__________________________________________________

110.

__________________________________________________

111.

__________________________________________________

112.

__________________________________________________

113.

[Pushing Daisies]

__________________________________________________

114.

__________________________________________________

115.

__________________________________________________

116.

[Total Eclipse]

__________________________________________________

117.

[Prison Break]

__________________________________________________

118.

__________________________________________________

119.

[MGS, FLCL]

__________________________________________________

120.

[ReBoot]

__________________________________________________

121.

__________________________________________________

122.

[Super Junior]

__________________________________________________

123.

[Producing Parker]

__________________________________________________

124.

[LotR]

__________________________________________________

125.

__________________________________________________

126.

__________________________________________________

127.

__________________________________________________

128.

__________________________________________________

129.

[FF9]

__________________________________________________

130.

[Stephen Fry]

__________________________________________________

131.

__________________________________________________

132.

__________________________________________________

133.

__________________________________________________

134.

__________________________________________________

135.

__________________________________________________

136.

__________________________________________________

137.

__________________________________________________

138.

__________________________________________________

139.

__________________________________________________

140.

__________________________________________________

141.

__________________________________________________

142.

__________________________________________________

143.

[Constantine]

__________________________________________________

144.

__________________________________________________

145.

__________________________________________________

146.

__________________________________________________

147.

__________________________________________________

148.

[Hourou Musuko]

__________________________________________________

149.

[Red Dragon]

__________________________________________________

150.

__________________________________________________

151.

__________________________________________________

152.

__________________________________________________

153.

__________________________________________________

154.

__________________________________________________

155.

__________________________________________________

156.

__________________________________________________

157.

__________________________________________________

158.

__________________________________________________

159.

[Secret Diary of a Call Girl]

__________________________________________________

160.

[Stephen Colbert]

__________________________________________________

161.

__________________________________________________

162.

__________________________________________________

163.

__________________________________________________

164.

__________________________________________________

165.

__________________________________________________

166.

__________________________________________________

167.

__________________________________________________

168.

__________________________________________________

169.

__________________________________________________

170.

__________________________________________________

171.

__________________________________________________

172.

__________________________________________________

173.

__________________________________________________

174.

__________________________________________________

175.

[NCIS]

__________________________________________________

176.

__________________________________________________

177.

__________________________________________________

178.

__________________________________________________

179.

__________________________________________________

180.

[LOST]

Notes:

Sorry for the earliness.

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 207 secrets from Secret Submission Post #129.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

That is not slash-like. That's just equal. The OP's wording implies that slash has some sort of monopoly on it. Horse shit.

Well, you see it a hell of lot more often in slash pairings than you do in het. Actually, it's fairly common in slash, so if you come from a standpoint where most of your pairings are slash, you might be more inclined to refer to that sort of het pairing as slash-like.

Slash likes to think it's great at this, but it's not really much better than het or yaoi(sp?). And yes, I am a slasher. You probably just know where to look for the half decent stuff and have lower standards for slash because you like it.

Well, Jesus - if you're gonna go into lower standards, we just might as well all take our ball and go home. Fandom has lower standards in general, no matter what you do or ship. Come on now.

Yeah, I have to do through a lot of dreck in order to find what I like, but when I find what I like - beats out anything I can see on TV or films. But seriously - Sturgeon's law, man. There's always gonna be a lot of crap. It's the good stuff which defines the genre.

That's the point.

If I like a ship, I am likely to be less critical of fic for that ship because it already has something I like. If I dislike a ship, well, that fic has to be twice as good for me to like it, because it has to get me over my initial DO NOT WANT or NOT INTERESTED reaction. So I will find less fic that I consider good for that ship.

Slash is not better than het.

Slash has cliches, stereotyped gender roles, fetishization of an oppressed group etc. etc.

You think it is better because you like it. If you have a het fic and a slash fic that were objectively the same quality, chances are that you, due to your personal preferences, would find the slash fic better.

Just like some one else would find the het fic better.

What matters is the relationship, not their gonads.

Actually, I judge a fic on its quality, so yeah, often I'm looking for a particular dynamic, but if the fic is good, real good, I'll like just about any ship. I just hunt for slash fic more often, is all.

But as far as what slash accomplishes... slash and femslash alike have more incentive to play around with expectations of gender imposed on us. Often they do this by nearly eliminating those expectations completely. And the fact that slash/femslash encourages this far more often than het does make me prefer it and makes me feel like it gives more than just simple romantic wish-fulfillment to those who enjoy it.

Way to miss the point. You hold het to higher standards because it's not something you actively like, you only think slash is better than het because it's your own preference. You're blinded my your own bias.

No, it's because I want my fic to do more than just tell a good story. If I just wanted good story-telling, I'd go watch a good movie or something. So yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of well-written het out there, and maybe sometimes the author is aware of gender tropes and actively seeks to escape them, or maybe they're not, or maybe they just don't care, but when the original medium itself has its characters still a part of that active social gendering... het fic's not really going to erase that for me. So het and slash fic may occupy the same level for you, but not for me. I don't care how unfair it may seem; I can't put them on the same level.

No one is saying your opinion is 'unfair', they're saying that your opinion is just that-an opinion;not fact. One that is not critical in the least. You can say "I like slash better than het" but you can't say "Slash is better than het" because that is just your biased opinion.

THIS

Not in my experience. The inequality is just between 'buttfucker' and 'buttfuckee' instead. And then those gender roles get applied ANYWAYS, no matter how little they fit, in a terrifying burst of heteronormativity.

Which isn't to say that het fandom isn't guilty of the same shit. But stop holding up slash fandom as some sort of holy grail of equality. I see this shit all the time and guess what? It's really not.

Are you including the Japanese stuff? Because I really don't. They're a whole 'nother ballgame. In Western stuff, though... I see that basis for equality in the original media more for slash ships than I do for het ships. And since I know that slash ships are never gonna happen in the original media, I seek out fic for that more. With het pairings, I just want to see it played out on the show/movie/etc. itself.

There's no appreciable difference between eastern and western stuff in this regard, except that the eastern stuff is more codified.

As long as we're not talking about fic or other fan-made media -

Are you kidding me? There's no appreciable difference between Western and Eastern stuff? Never mind that cultural mores are completely different? Can you please explain to me where you're coming from? Because the Japanese take shit to places that Westerners would never in a million years go. Come on.

...what? No, we're talking about fic and other fan-made media. I'm saying that eastern and western media fandoms do the same shit that I described above. The only appreciable difference is that in eastern media fandom, they have names for it. It's codified.

Well, then I'm out of my depth here. Because I barely read any fic for anime/manga when I was into it; I just stuck to commercial yaoi works. I can only speak about slash, which often doesn't fall into heteronormative tropes, not the stuff people call good. The obvious heteronormativity that may follow into yaoi fic... I can only assume comes from commercially made yaoi itself. I don't know.

But slash based on Western media? I see the equality of the relationship on the screen, and so I follow it into fic, and often I really don't have to search hard to find authors who really build upon it. I just got into a new fandom, and I keep finding new and old fic that fulfills what I'm looking for. But I'll admit I don't have to love a show or a movie first in order to ship a slash pairing. Het pairings that I ship are usually born out of shows I love watching to begin with.

Your life story is nice but isn't really relevant.

If you see treatment of relationships as equals more in slash fandom than in in het fandom, you need to read your slashfic more critically.

And I think you need to start judging slash by the good stuff and not the reams of badfic that gets posted.

(I wish I could rec you something, but I haven't been into the Japanese stuff in ages... do you like Antique Bakery? Are you in any Western fandoms?)

Stop treating me like some fandom neophyte. I know that there's plenty of good slash out there. I'm not saying there isn't. But there's plenty of good, equal-ground het out there as well. And there's a fuckload of bad for both, too. At no point have I claimed otherwise. What I'm saying is that equality is no more prevalent in slashfic than hetfic, or vice-versa. Treating either one (although slash fans do this a lot more) as some sort of pure ideal of equality while disregarding all the stuff you don't like, is a load of horse hockey.

If you say het fic takes a lot of the heteronormativity out of the original media and makes things more equal, I have no choice but to take your word for it, because I don't read a lot of het fic. If you say that a lot of good het fic writers seek to challenge those mores or make them moot the same way good slash writers do (and I'm going with the good stuff here because it makes no sense to judge these things by the bad), then I'll have to take your word for it, too. I'm just saying that I don't see a lot of het pairings in the original media that have the same foundation for equality that I see for slash pairings, so I'm disinclined to believe that a lot of het fic would seek to make it better, but I could always be wrong.

So--

You admit you don't have the proper frame of reference to discuss this.

You have clearly misidentified what is even being discussed.

You don't have anything meaningful to say on the topic.

And yet you decided to speak up anyways!?

What made you think this was a good idea?

(no subject)

sessile29.livejournal.com - 2009-06-23 22:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

pikabot - 2009-06-23 22:54 (UTC) - Expand

you might be more inclined to refer to that sort of het pairing as slash-like.

That sounds insulting and dumb.

Slash is not OMG GODLY, and neither are you for being a fan of it.

THIS so much THIS.

I'm so sick of this "My gender genre is so much better than yours, thus I'm super special!" BS people like to throw around. You aren't *special* or *unique* for liking slash, or het, or whatever. You might like to thinkthat your sandbox is the best out there but it isn't, it's like any other, so please get over yourselves.

A monopoly? Of course not (and there's always poor, forgotten femslash). But slash pairings and slash fic tend to be rather more equal than het pairings and fic, if for no other reason than societal and cultural gender mores. And as someone who reads both het and slash, and who reads a lot of both, in many fandoms, I do see a real and appreciable difference.

Not in my experience. Maybe you should start looking at your slash fic a little more critically.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only