[ SECRET POST #900 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #900 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.


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102.
[Scrubs]


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103.
[Daniel Radcliffe & Tom Felton]


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104.
[Phantom of the Opera]


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105.
[Vampire Knight, Twilight]


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106.
[Fallout 3]


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107.


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108.
[Trek/SPN]


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109.
[Little Shop of Horrors]


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110.


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111.


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112.


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113.
[Pushing Daisies]


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114.


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115.


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116.
[Total Eclipse]


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117.
[Prison Break]


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118.


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119.
[MGS, FLCL]


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120.
[ReBoot]


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121.


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122.
[Super Junior]


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123.
[Producing Parker]


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124.
[LotR]


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125.


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126.


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127.


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128.


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129.
[FF9]


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130.
[Stephen Fry]


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131.


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132.


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133.


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134.


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135.


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136.


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137.


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138.


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139.


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140.


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141.


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142.


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143.
[Constantine]


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144.


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145.


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146.


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147.


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148.
[Hourou Musuko]


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149.
[Red Dragon]


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150.


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151.


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152.


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153.


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154.


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155.


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156.


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157.


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158.


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159.
[Secret Diary of a Call Girl]


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160.
[Stephen Colbert]


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161.


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162.


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163.


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164.


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165.


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166.


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167.


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168.


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169.


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170.


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171.


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172.


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173.


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174.


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175.
[NCIS]


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176.


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177.


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178.


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179.


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180.
[LOST]



Notes:

Sorry for the earliness.

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 207 secrets from Secret Submission Post #129.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Maybe you'd have to be a fan of slash to begin with to understand what the OP is driving at, but often in slash there is a dynamic where the characters are unquestionably on equal ground (within the confines of the relationship) and neither character gets defined along gender lines or is restricted in any way because of their gender. (For instance - Barney's a womanizer, but not because it's an expression of his manliness, but because he's Barney.)

Some other slash-like het pairings in my mind:
Kira/Dukat
Bond/M
Mara Jade/Luke
Buffy/Spike

[pikabot]

That is not slash-like. That's just equal. The OP's wording implies that slash has some sort of monopoly on it. Horse shit.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Well, you see it a hell of lot more often in slash pairings than you do in het. Actually, it's fairly common in slash, so if you come from a standpoint where most of your pairings are slash, you might be more inclined to refer to that sort of het pairing as slash-like.

[(Anonymous)]

Slash likes to think it's great at this, but it's not really much better than het or yaoi(sp?). And yes, I am a slasher. You probably just know where to look for the half decent stuff and have lower standards for slash because you like it.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Well, Jesus - if you're gonna go into lower standards, we just might as well all take our ball and go home. Fandom has lower standards in general, no matter what you do or ship. Come on now.

Yeah, I have to do through a lot of dreck in order to find what I like, but when I find what I like - beats out anything I can see on TV or films. But seriously - Sturgeon's law, man. There's always gonna be a lot of crap. It's the good stuff which defines the genre.

[(Anonymous)]

That's the point.

If I like a ship, I am likely to be less critical of fic for that ship because it already has something I like. If I dislike a ship, well, that fic has to be twice as good for me to like it, because it has to get me over my initial DO NOT WANT or NOT INTERESTED reaction. So I will find less fic that I consider good for that ship.

Slash is not better than het.

Slash has cliches, stereotyped gender roles, fetishization of an oppressed group etc. etc.

You think it is better because you like it. If you have a het fic and a slash fic that were objectively the same quality, chances are that you, due to your personal preferences, would find the slash fic better.

Just like some one else would find the het fic better.

What matters is the relationship, not their gonads.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Actually, I judge a fic on its quality, so yeah, often I'm looking for a particular dynamic, but if the fic is good, real good, I'll like just about any ship. I just hunt for slash fic more often, is all.

But as far as what slash accomplishes... slash and femslash alike have more incentive to play around with expectations of gender imposed on us. Often they do this by nearly eliminating those expectations completely. And the fact that slash/femslash encourages this far more often than het does make me prefer it and makes me feel like it gives more than just simple romantic wish-fulfillment to those who enjoy it.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS

[pikabot]

Not in my experience. The inequality is just between 'buttfucker' and 'buttfuckee' instead. And then those gender roles get applied ANYWAYS, no matter how little they fit, in a terrifying burst of heteronormativity.

Which isn't to say that het fandom isn't guilty of the same shit. But stop holding up slash fandom as some sort of holy grail of equality. I see this shit all the time and guess what? It's really not.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Are you including the Japanese stuff? Because I really don't. They're a whole 'nother ballgame. In Western stuff, though... I see that basis for equality in the original media more for slash ships than I do for het ships. And since I know that slash ships are never gonna happen in the original media, I seek out fic for that more. With het pairings, I just want to see it played out on the show/movie/etc. itself.

[pikabot]

There's no appreciable difference between eastern and western stuff in this regard, except that the eastern stuff is more codified.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

As long as we're not talking about fic or other fan-made media -

Are you kidding me? There's no appreciable difference between Western and Eastern stuff? Never mind that cultural mores are completely different? Can you please explain to me where you're coming from? Because the Japanese take shit to places that Westerners would never in a million years go. Come on.

[(Anonymous)]

you might be more inclined to refer to that sort of het pairing as slash-like.

That sounds insulting and dumb.

Slash is not OMG GODLY, and neither are you for being a fan of it.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS so much THIS.

I'm so sick of this "My gender genre is so much better than yours, thus I'm super special!" BS people like to throw around. You aren't *special* or *unique* for liking slash, or het, or whatever. You might like to thinkthat your sandbox is the best out there but it isn't, it's like any other, so please get over yourselves.

[(Anonymous)]

A monopoly? Of course not (and there's always poor, forgotten femslash). But slash pairings and slash fic tend to be rather more equal than het pairings and fic, if for no other reason than societal and cultural gender mores. And as someone who reads both het and slash, and who reads a lot of both, in many fandoms, I do see a real and appreciable difference.

[pikabot]

Not in my experience. Maybe you should start looking at your slash fic a little more critically.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe you'd have to be a fan of slash to begin with to understand what the OP is driving at

God, will you please just shut up already? Frankly you make slash sound like some cult where you have to join and do a lot of groveling to get to know the ~secret~ rules. And I'm saying this as a person who still reads and ships slash more than het (or femme slash). It might surprise you but some people like pairings for the characters and not their gender.

And calling pairings with strong female characters "slash-like" is just insulting.

[pikabot]

And calling pairings with strong female characters "slash-like" is just insulting.

Haha, thanks, I knew something about this was bugging me that I was missing.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Why is it insulting, though? Slash is made by women; it's a relationship women want to see. So for a het pairing to resemble that... what's the problem?

[pikabot]

Because it's implying that the only way for a relationship to be equal is if the woman is cut out of it.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

No, it's implying the dynamic happens more often on-screen between potential slash ships than het ships.

[pikabot]

...no.

Look. Look at the terminology being used. "Slash-like". As in, in imitation of slash. As in "similar to slash but not quite there". When you use that term to describe ~equal relationships~, especially in an idealized manner, you are implying that the best a relationship containing a woman can be is ALMOST there. This is the meaning that your words carry!

[(Anonymous)]

Because you're saying a strong woman resembles slash; in other words she's strong because she's like a man. God forbid a strong woman and man in equal footing resemble just that, a strong woman and a man on equal footing.

Just because it's made by women doesn't mean it can't be sexist.

[sessile29.livejournal.com]

Well, when a lot of weaknesses get touted as so-called "feminine" characteristics and a lot of strengths get touted as so-called "masculine" characteristics (by society, of course, and not that these characteristics are inherent in men or women), things get complicated.

Is the characterization of guys in slash pairings representative of the masculine ideal, or is representative of how women want to see guys act or how women see themselves reflected in how guys act? Is a "strong woman" only strong because she resembles a guy or because she embodies characteristics that usually get considered as masculine? Is a strength only a strength when guys do it, or because society prefers to see men strong? Complicated.

I think slash can be an idealization, and sometimes people want to see the het ships resemble that ideal, and I think the ideals are ones that go beyond gender and slash uses a same-sex pairing to embody that.

[(Anonymous)]

See, you're trying to draw this back to your idea that slash is somehow the cornerstone of equality, when it isn't. You have rose-tinted glasses when it comes to your prefered pairings, and frankly it shows in a huge way.

Het isn't one cookie-cutter archetype, it has many (as does slash) There is no pairing that hasn't been done before, nor is there a single gender-genre that embodies said characteristics, no matter how badly you want to delude yourself into thinking otherwise. To say that a het couple can only be equal when it is like slash is saying that it has to be the male/male dynamic for it to be strong.

A woman doesn't need to be like a man to be strong, and to say that your *ideal* somehow makes this possible is laughable. Your pairings don't go beyond gender, because you base them soley on the gender and not the content.