[ SECRET POST #6130 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6130 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 13 secrets from Secret Submission Post #876.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that it's a form of decolonization to not correct people on their spelling and grammar. Here are my thoughts:

So, first, the memes are always written with impeccable spelling and grammar, and there is always an underlying assumption that you, a person who uses correct spelling and grammar, are free to continue to do so. In other words, despite these things being part and parcel of colonization, it's expected that you'll personally perpetuate their use. Your own writing need not be decolonized.

Second, the way in which one writes is an indicator of class. Those higher up on the socioeconomic scale are more likely to use correct spelling and grammar, and this opens doors for them - doors that are much harder to open for those whose writing does not follow the prescriptive forms. There is no suggestion in these memes that this should be challenged or dismantled.

So, I think that rather than decolonizing anything, this move to refrain from correcting spelling and grammar will in fact reinforce class boundaries and hamper the ability of those on the lower rungs to advance. Those who are "in the know" remain in the know, and continue to benefit from that knowledge; those not "in the know" are kept in the dark in a patronizing sort of way.

All that said, some people really can be dicks when they point out spelling and grammar mistakes. But I think there's probably a way to do it kindly, and sharing such information could do more to flatten hierarchies than withholding it. Part of the point of universal education, after all, was to blur the distinctions between classes. I feel that's been lost in recent years, and people have instead started to argue that universal education is inherently inequitable.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

What?

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

It's gotten very popular among my upper middle class friends to tell one another not to correct anyone's spelling or grammar, because spelling and grammar are artifacts of colonization. Writing must be "decolonized," which would involve dispensing with white, Western ideas about proper form. But they, themselves, are not expected to let go of the white, Western form.

Damn, while writing this reply, I just realized something else about it: it assumes that spelling and grammar are white and Western, when all languages in fact have spelling and grammar.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

It's gotten very popular among my upper middle class friends to tell one another not to correct anyone's spelling or grammar, because spelling and grammar are artifacts of colonization.

Oooh, I want to share this one with my aunt (a retired English professor) to see what kind of reaction this will get.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

... I was going to say. I'm fluent in another (non-white) language and it too has grammar that is considered "correct" as opposed to the dialect forms.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

Eh? If you personally use correct grammar (which, spoilers, practically nobody does if you go strictly by the book. Even your upper middle class friends probably sometimes begin sentences with "And" and "Because" and end sentences with prepositions) then there's no real hypocrisy about continuing to talk the way that's normal for you while also not trying to make all other people you talk to speak the same way. Even if someone thinks it's decolonization to not correct grammar, that also doesn't mean decolonization requires everyone to start using "incorrect" grammar.

This whole thing really sounds like a strawman though. I've never known anyone to be "against" correcting grammar for reasons other than it's kinda dickish and yeah, unnecessary as long as you understand the meaning of what the person is saying, and CAN come off as racist/classist depending on context, but I've never heard that therefore the opposite is true i.e. not correcting grammar is activism.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

My thoughts exactly.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

What memes? I've seen tons with bad spelling and grammar, often on purpose as part of the meme.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I can't figure out how to get imgur to let me upload images from my phone, because I am a moron.

The most recent one a friend shared said:
"If someone's meaning is clear, don't correct their spelling and grammar. Start to decondition yourself from the colonial grammar rules that were forcibly pushed upon you. Those systems exist to invisibly enforce hierarchy. Unlearn the need to police those rules, especially when the rules do nothing to enhance comprehension."

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I hope your friend understands context. Like, I'm not going to correct spelling and grammar when my friends text me, or send personal emails. I AM going to correct spelling and grammar for school/work. Language can absolutely be used as a tool for colonization, but it's the language as a whole, i.e. forcing people to use Dutch instead of Afrikaans, or refusing to allow loan works (looking at you, France), for example. Having semi-universal spelling and grammar rules within a language is not colonialism. It's just common sense, especially for official documentation of all kinds.

Still don't know what this has to do with memes, though.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

These sentiments are presented in meme format.

And, yes, I think that is the source of the confusion. When people are forced to speak the language of the nation that's colonizing them, that erodes their culture and is an injustice. But spelling and grammar themselves aren't tools of colonization.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

No, but arguably the insistence on the spelling and grammar of the “prestige dialect” could be considered a tool of colonization (or at the very least, oppression).

And so I understand feeling that you shouldn’t correct people on those grounds. Especially because it’s often hard for people (esp. lay people who speak a dialect associated with societal power) to distinguish between a person’s mistakes and a person’s 100% correct use of a specific dialect.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Ahhh, I now get the meme reference. At first I was so confused about memes always having perfect spelling and grammar because one of my favorites is "it fuckin wimdy". 🤣

Re: Belly thoughts

[meadowphoenix]

having semi-universal spelling and grammar rules within a language is not colonialism
that's not true in the US. just one instance (and not even the only one) is the use of AAVE, which does in fact have it's own spelling and grammar, being presented a marker of a lack of intelligence, and not a marker of cultural influences and inheritances.

and THEN there's the appropriative interpolation of vernacular english into common slang, which sets off a marginalized culture as counter-culture which is its own problem.

then of course, there's the idea that either grammar or spelling was standardized for all of the US's sovereignty, which it was not. Who standardized it? Whose grammar and spelling did they prioritize? Surely, everyone understands that "standard" curricula in public schools, through which most writing standardization is actually perpetuated are often tools of domination and colonization right?

This isn't actually me saying that having some common understanding of grammar and spelling is bad, it's me saying that it can absolutely be colonialism.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

No, it is true in the US as much as it is anywhere. The same way that China forces people to use standard Mandarin and tries to get people to look down on all the other Chinese language dialects. China does this to Chinese people who speak variants of Mandarin and it's not colonialism, in the same way that English does with it's own dialects, including AAVE and a lot of southern variants. (I was often told in school that "ain't" and "y'all" were not proper grammar.)

As you say, it CAN be colonialism, just like it can also be elitist or classist, but it's not colonialist/elitist/classist in and of itself. Grammar and spelling rules are not colonialism. They are tools and rules of communication. Like any tool or rule, it depends on who wields them.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

nah mate don't patronize me for using the wrong fork when I'm hungry and just trying to eat. That's some nouveau riche like grammar opinions. Many people with an experienced grasp on English end up coming into the wisdom that correcting someone's grammar isn't worth it 95% of the time. If you can understand them then they've communicated clearly. Who cares if they use a semicolon improperly or insert a comma split?

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Ah, but it can also be patronizing to assume that the reason you shouldn't be corrected on your fork usage is that people like you don't have manners; only people like me do.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

This is a weird take for me, because my assumption isn’t that those people don’t have manners, it’s that they have their own set of manners which are no more or less objectively correct than the ones I was taught.

But maybe that’s not the common assumption and more a product of knowing a few linguists and anthropologists?

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT and nevermind that, forget colonization, a lot of 'correcting' is rooted in classism and racism, like telling a black person that you wouldn't know they were black just by hearing them speak...

Obviously there's a time and place for proper SPAG (some work emails, policies, papers, etc), but it's not a clear-cut 'if I don't correct someone's spelling/grammar the world will collapse!'.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

Who said anything about the world collapsing?

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

If it's not a big deal as all that, then why do people carry on like someone might die if a spelling mistake is allowed to be created uncorrected?

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

So, I have an acquaintance (she's part of my larger friend group but I'm not particularly close to her) whose first language is not English. Her English is fine for the most part, but she gets things wrong sometimes, which is to be expected since it's not her first language. Whatever.

The annoying thing is that she will constantly tell us that she wants to get better at English and to correct her when she gets things wrong. Yet every time someone does, she gets really pissed off, yells about how English isn't her first language, nobody should expect her to be perfect, etc. And then when someone mispronounces a word in her native language (which is super uncommon where we live and which none of us speak), she will jump all over them. So it's not okay to criticize her English even when she's specifically asked us to, but it's perfectly fine for her to criticize us for not speaking her language properly when none of us speak it at all and haven't claimed to. The double standard is so fucking annoying.

(For the record, she is white and significantly wealthier than the rest of us; most of us are either not white or not rich or both, so it's not a race/class thing, except maybe from her end.)

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, that just sucks. I’ve known people who are like that with all kinds of things. They can’t bear even the most delicate constructive criticism, while forcefully correcting others.

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

Is her first language French?

Re: Belly thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

Just drop the whole thought and you'll feel less conflicted and better without it.