Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2023-11-25 04:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2023-11-25 04:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #6168 ]
⌈ Secret Post #6168 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 36 secrets from Secret Submission Post #882.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?
(Anonymous) 2023-11-26 05:46 pm (UTC)(link)It is not moral to sacrifice someone because you've decided it's the right thing to do, without them having a say or a choice in the matter. It's especially not moral to do it for what is, as far as I can tell from my knowledge of this story, something that's experimental and is not guaranteed to work.
When we create vaccines in real life, we do not kill people with natural immunity in order to synthesize them. We certainly don't do it while lying to them about the process, keeping from them the knowledge that they're going to die. That would be deeply, deeply unethical, in any context.
Do you think it would be okay for you force your loved ones into it, if they knew exactly what was about to happen to them and they told you "no?" And what if it didn't work? What if you forced your loved ones to die for nothing?
Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?
You are correct, but right answer here is to force the unarmed doctors (who may very well not know that she has not consented, or at least, you can't say for certain that they do, the only person you've confirmed to know is their leader who you also know hides many things from her followers) to wake her up at gunpoint then ask her if this is what she wants, not slaughter everyone involved and lie to her later about what happened.
The problem is that, within the story - and this is what drives Joel to act the way he does to get the end he wants - Ellie has strongly implied that she would want to go through with it, even if she hasn't stated outright "yes the Fireflies can kill me to create the vaccine". Therefore, Joel removes that choice from her. He would rather have a living daughter than a chance at saving the world, even if that means murder, even if that means overriding her autonomy.
And that is what leads directly to the events of the sequel. (Where the "correct" answer to the dilemma is given in the form of Abby and her father. Her father (correctly) asks her what she would want in that situation, and her father (correctly) agrees to respect that.)
Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?
(Anonymous) 2023-11-26 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)Where did that come in? Where did I say that I would outright MURDER them if they said no, they didn't want to? This is in the context of the game, where Ellie has said that she wants to do the procedure. We can debate on whether or not she had full informed consent, but the fact of the matter is that Joel didn't care about her consent or her choices. JOEL didn't want her to die, so he took her and lied to her. It doesn't matter if she actually had informed consent or not because it doesn't change any of Joel's actions.
She didn't have informed consent? Joel killed the doctor, took her and lied to her about why the procedure didn't happen.
She did have informed consent? Joel killed the doctor, took her and lied to her about why the procedure didn't happen.
Because it was never about her. It's never about what she wanted. It was ALL about Joel.
If my child, my mom, my wife, were told "Hey, you are the only hope we have of developing a vaccine against this thing that is slowly killing the entire human race. We will need to use your brain to do it. Please come to X hospital," and they were as committed to getting there as Ellie is, I would (hopefully) help bring them to X hospital and um... not kill the doctors doing it? Cause invalidating someone's choices is a shitty thing to do normally, but to do it when the fate of the world also hangs on you not being a dick you've become a superdick. A massive asshole. A terrible person.