[ SECRET POST #6170 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6170 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[Genshin Impact]



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[FFXIV]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 24 secrets from Secret Submission Post #882.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

+1000.

And when you point this out, some assholes will act as if you have a personal duty to spend the time, energy, and money to trawl through the millions of tv shows and movies to find good female characters, otherwise you're anti-woman.

[(Anonymous)]

But you don't have to trawl through "millions of TV shows and movies" to find good female characters. They simply aren't that rare.

Sexism is not saying, "this is a good character, but I hate it because it's a woman." Sexism is having different metrics for what makes a male or female character "good," such that few, if any, female characters ever clear the bar. And that sexism is typically not self-aware; it's people telling themselves that the reason they hate all female characters is because every single last one of them is written terribly. There can't possibly be any other reason.

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, yeah you do. Because not everyone has immediate access to the same media. Shocking, I know, but people live in places you don't.

I'll agree that anyone who hates all female characters is probably misogynistic, but the amount of well written female characters varies widely depending on where you are and what media you have access to. Cause, surprise, it will cost time, effort, and money to look at other stuff... Kinda... kinda just like I said....

[(Anonymous)]

Where do you live that you lack access to any media involving good female characters?

[(Anonymous)]

They're on the internet right now, so by default that claim is bullshit.

[(Anonymous)]

Sexism is having different metrics for what makes a male or female character "good," such that few, if any, female characters ever clear the bar. And that sexism is typically not self-aware; it's people telling themselves that the reason they hate all female characters is because every single last one of them is written terribly.

This is exactly it. Sexism is when when people decry a female character for being terrible and badly written, yet when a male character displays the exact same traits, somehow they're interesting and nuanced.

[(Anonymous)]

It's rarely a 1-1 translation though. A female character almost always has to be feminine, whatever that means to the writer. And a lot of the times it's complete BS that makes for a bad character. Like when animators put tits on a duck.

[(Anonymous)]

Why do tits make a character bad?

[(Anonymous)]

When a male character is badly written, I can ignore him because a) 99 percent chance is there are good male characters in the same fandom to devote my time to and b) point A makes clear that he's just one bad character and not written badly because the writer doesn't know or care to learn how to write men well.

When a women is badly written, she's often the only major female character in the canon, and the others are either nonexistent or too minor to expect any characterization. She is also therefore The Woman, who stands for all women and the writer's ideas of womanhood all rest on her.

You cannot say misogyny exists in the world and simultaneously deny that this misogyny doesn't seep into our fiction. It's also ludicrous to imply that male writers are less misogynistic than female consumers and that the misogyny usually lies in female consumers criticizing female characters who are in fact wonderful products of misogyny-free writing.

[(Anonymous)]

"When a male character is badly written, I can ignore him"

But what's being brought up here is not badly written male characters being ignored; it's badly written male characters getting accolades.

"You cannot say misogyny exists in the world and simultaneously deny that this misogyny doesn't seep into our fiction."

Misogyny certainly does seep into fiction. But misogyny also colors the way we view and respond to fiction.

"It's also ludicrous to imply that male writers are less misogynistic than female consumers and that the misogyny usually lies in female consumers criticizing female characters who are in fact wonderful products of misogyny-free writing."

This isn't really what's being said. What's being said is that there is a kind of misogyny present in certain female-dominated spaces in fandom that causes male characters to be preferred over female characters, regardless of the quality of the writing. This does not mean that female consumers writ large are more misogynistic than misogynistic male writers. It does mean that, "many female characters are poorly written" is used by some as a way to justify dislike of female characters altogether.

[(Anonymous)]

"When a women is badly written, she's often the only major female character in the canon, and the others are either nonexistent or too minor to expect any characterization."

What... what canons are you consuming that only have a single major female character in them?

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly! For example a lot of people usually do not care about heroes in the story. But they do love funny sidekick or the evil guy etc. But if you have one woman you don't have a choice of characters. And if she is written by another writer who tries and fails to do a girlboss...

Also yes, I prefer different traits in male and female characters because there are years of media and different expectations and tropes. So for example I would like male character who runs and cries and is obviously afraid but still is a good person. And I do not care for female character like this.

[(Anonymous)]

+infinity

SA

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, look at all those people above, proving my point. It's so easy and effortless NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT.

Thanks for playing.

Re: SA

[(Anonymous)]

It's so easy and effortless NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT.

I mean, maybe that's because when someone gave you a nice list of five titles, you immediately demanded that they tell you how to access those titles for free in your region (without even mentioning what region that is).

That was some prime goalpost-shifting there, from "who has the time, energy, and money to trawl through millions of TV shows and films in search of good female characters" to "even when I know where to find good female characters, I need somebody to walk me through the steps of accessing that media for free".

If you'd just been appreciative of the recs rather than combative and demanding, there's a good chance you'd have gotten more recs.

Re: SA

[(Anonymous)]

That was some prime goalpost-shifting there, from "who has the time, energy, and money to trawl through millions of TV shows and films in search of good female characters" to "even when I know where to find good female characters, I need somebody to walk me through the steps of accessing that media for free".

No. The "where to find" is part of the time and effort and money part. It takes time and effort to find a piece of media that has a general consensus of well written female characters (though that's not always a guarantee), and even if that time and effort is saved by someone rec'ing them, you still have to find out where it lives between the hundreds of streaming services. And that assumes you have the money to have streaming services. Someone mentioned libraries, which assumes that all libraries have copies of all movies, which LOL. So, if you don't have the money and you don't have the platonic ideal of a library, you now have to put in the time and effort of finding an illegal copy that won't give you a virus. If it was so easy and quick to do, people would put links to them in with the rec. But people don't.

Because it takes time and effort. QED.

Re: SA

[(Anonymous)]

No. The "where to find" is part of the time and effort and money part.

That was not at all clear to me on reading your first comment--or, I'd guess, to most of the people upthread who subsequently argued with you about it. When you said it took time and money and energy to trawl through millions of titles, I could somewhat see where you were coming from, because it does take all three of those things to trawl through millions...or, you know, a less exaggeratedly high number...of titles.

But if you can't even put in the time and effort to track down where to find a mere handful of titles in your region (which you still haven't shared, btw, making it impossible for anyone to provide that info even if there were an unbelievably generous Good Samaritan in this thread willing to guide you through the process), and if the amount of money you're willing to spend isn't just "less than the amount it would cost to trawl through millions of titles" but in fact no money at all, then imo you shouldn't be asking for recs online. You're expecting far too much from reccers.

Re: SA

[(Anonymous)]

SA

But hey, since I'm nice--and because I love these shows and films and want more people to see these recs--here's another 5+ recs for you. Though I'm not going to walk you through how to find them for free wherever it is you live either, sorry-not-sorry about that.

Hidden Figures
Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries
The Old Guard
Nobuta wo Produce
Russian Doll

Qualified bonus rec: Our Flag Means Death has a very male cast overall, especially when you're looking at the main characters. But I freaking adore most of the female supporting characters, especially Mary Bonnet (S1), Spanish Jackie (S1 & S2), and Anne Bonney (Episode 2x03). So if you're fine with a rec for good female supporting characters, then here you go.

Re: SA

[(Anonymous)]

Again. Not asking for recs. I'm saying that people should stop calling me a misogynist when I complain that the stuff I have easy, quick, and free access to has horribly written female characters. I have no obligation to prove my feminism by spending time, money, and effort to watch the stuff you have easy, quick, and relatively cheap access to.

[(Anonymous)]

The fact that you consider it a chore is more telling about your mindset than you think tbh. You don't want to try, you don't care, and instead of acknowledging that you're making up an excuse because saying 'I just don't like female characters' looks bad for a very good reason.

But hey, continue thinking you're a victim here.

[(Anonymous)]

Do you live in some utopia where major speaking female characters, and even more - major speaking female well written characters - are just, like, falling out of the sky, you're just lousy with them? Cause I don't. I'm surrounded by mostly men, and softly spoken supportive wives who are on screen about ten seconds to give him food. When you have to sift and sort to find anything different, yeah, it's a fucking chore. Congrats on always being surrounded by everything you could ever want.

[(Anonymous)]

Not the above anon but uh yeah, actually, I do. There are great female characters all over the place these days and it's not like it's even hard to find them.

[(Anonymous)]

Completely seriously here anon: yes.

I do not lack well-written and engaging female characters, they're not just 'wives' or 'gf's' of the main dudes in the show/movie, they have their own narratives or shows about them as individuals. I'm sorry you seem not to but I really do have to question what you're primarily watching where these are your only choices? Because this hasn't been the case even in mainstream media for a long time where I live.

[(Anonymous)]

Seriously, where in the world do you live? Saudi Arabia?

[(Anonymous)]

Pretty damn close. And I'm sick and tired of being blamed for it. I would LOVE to live with the kind of media you all claim is out there that is easily accessible! It's not for me. And then I get blamed for not loving the female characters I have. It's fucking exhausting.