fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6286 ]

[ SECRET POST #6286 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6286 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

[Homebrewing]

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #898.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

People lie; people adopt signifiers to draw attention to themselves; people use identity to manipulate and gain power over others. To say that it's always transphobic to reject a pronoun is to say that it's perfectly fine to do all of this, that there can be no way of noticing it, acknowledging it, and calling it out.

You are advocating for the use of identity to get away with treating others poorly, to being narcissistic, and to, in far too many cases, being emotionally abusive. Someone does not suddenly become a good, untouchable person by declaring themselves trans or nonbinary, and not only do you excuse the mistreatment of others by failing to recognize this, but you doom the cause. People do not want to line up behind self-centered histrionic assholes! And if you continually prop up the self-centered histrionic assholes, and make excuses for them, and paint anyone who calls them out as bigots, then guess what? People are going to think that the movement is made up of self-centered histrionic assholes.

Someone who adopts a ridiculous, tumblr-generated neopronoun is an attention-seeking jackass and should not be taken seriously. Period. They are someone who is using the existence of trans people to get away with acting like a fool, and we would all do better to disavow them rather than indulge them.

+1000

You mean like how trans women lie to sneak into women's bathrooms and assault them? Or not like that at all no, you respect REAL trans people, it's just those lying manipulative teenage girl transtrenders?

Sorry, just trying to gauge what level of TERFdom you've reached here.

Let me pose a question to you. Which do you think is better for trans rights in the long term: calling out and disavowing those who behave abominably while hiding behind a trans identity (and yes, that includes people lying in order to gain access to women, primarily with sex offenders suddenly declaring that they're trans at sentencing -- and then going on to assault female inmates); or arguing that such things never happen, and that hatred is the only reason for anyone to ever bring it up? What do you think is more likely to make people distrust the cause?

When people do not clean their own house, the bad actors they've allowed to shelter within it eventually bring it down. It always happens that way. And even were that not the case, why in the world should any of us want shitty people in our communities? If someone is behaving in ways that we wouldn't accept from the out-group, in ways may even have caused us to flee the out-group in the first place, why would we not boot them out?

"lying in order to gain access to women, primarily with sex offenders suddenly declaring that they're trans at sentencing -- and then going on to assault female inmates"

Stats please.

Nicola Sturgeon was brought down as First Minister in part due to two rapists in a single week being slated to go to women's prison after declaring that they were trans.

Caldwell prison in California is in the midst of defending against a lawsuit brought by female inmates (including an actual trans woman) who were harassed and assaulted by male inmates that got into their prison by claiming to be trans. These men dropped the pretense once they were with the female inmates, who took to sleeping in shifts in order to protect one another.

"Karen Smith" was sentence to life in prison a few years back after assaulting female inmates and getting one of them pregnant. His supposed trans identity developed during sentencing for the crime for which he was initially imprisoned.

I could keep going, if you like.

But the fact is that there is no benefit to denying these cases and others like them, and every benefit to saying, "these are predators who are exploiting a marginalized identity for their own gain, and we condemn them." Denying it makes it look like the community is trying to cover for it; acknowledging and condemning it allows the community to make it very clear that we don't allow people to get away with despicable behavior just because they claim to be one of us. And it allows the community to draw a firm distinction between actual trans people who just want to live their lives in peace, and awful people who would poison any group they happened to latch onto.

I am still not clear, because no one here has even bothered to try and explain it, why anyone would want to protect absolute shitheads who give their community a bad name and are likely to hurt other community members.

Those are case studies. You can find case studies for anything. I asked for stats.

DA
"Give me information".

Gets the information.

"No, I don't like this one and I will dismiss it on a technicality because I can't argue against it!"

No... I didn't say "give me information." I specifically asked for statistics. People will be afraid of stupid shit that isn't common simply because they know case studies. They don't understand that the case studies are ALL THAT EVER HAPPENED. Meaning that they happen at a rate of .0000000568 per 100k capita. Which is not a problem worth worrying over. Which is why I asked for stats.

So. Stats? Otherwise all you have are case studies, which are less than worthless.

Do you not understand that this kind of dismissal of any time something happens MAKES. US. LOOK. BAD.

It does not matter if it happens infrequently. It only has to happen ONCE, and for us to deny that it happened or say it's "less than worthless" that it happened, for it to make it look like we're perfectly fine with it, and that at a minimum we don't give a shit about anyone who was hurt by it. "It's not a problem that that girl was raped in the school bathroom, because that's just a case study." How do you think that sounds to people? To her parents? To her friends? To her?

What is so hard about saying, "yeah, those people are shitty, and they're also liars?" What is the point of jumping through all manner of hoops to avoid saying it? Who does it benefit?

It doesn't do anything other than make YOU look bad. You're trying to hard to claim this is a massive problem that needs to be addressed, but can't give me anything other than three instances. Three instances out of a population of 8 billion is NOT A PROBLEM.

Getting raped in a school bathroom happens WAY more often. Almost always cis girls being raped by cis boys who don't even bother to pretend that they're not cis. So, you know, pretending to be trans to go into a bathroom is statistically not a thing to worry about. Dudes will just walk on in there, no pretending needed. THAT is the problem.

The person jumping through hoops is you. If you actually cared about women you would ask yourself, What is the biggest problem women face? What is causing the most harm to women? How do I make the lives of the majority of women the most qualitatively better? And you do THAT through statistics.

"Well, my brother's girlfriend's cousin's best friend was attacked by a lion, so how dare you say lion attacks aren't a problem. How do you think that makes her feel??!" That's a case study, my dude. It ain't a problem.

If you have no statistics about cis dudes pretending to be trans then you haven't done the work, and you don't actually care about women. You care about finding reasons to hate trans people being treated with respect.

DA
I think you should re-read what op wrote because you're talking about different things and issues here. I don't think op is in that much in bad faith like you're envisioning them ("you don't actually care about women"? wow).
Your reply here really comes off as whataboutism

Not really. Their reply is whataboutism. The topic was using neo-pronouns and whether or not people are serious in their use or only insisting on them to gain attention. OP decided to bring in the false right wing narrative of trans people or cis men using the idea of trans people to assault women vs calling out annoying people, and which is better for the movement. Since one doesn't functionally exist, but we have many examples of the other, I requested stats that prove bathroom assaults by trans people, real or fake, are actually a problem worth considering. No stats were provided. I instead got case studies, which proves nothing other than such a thing happened thrice, and is thus not something worth arguing or worrying over. Thus our attentions should be focused on annoying assholes who want all non binary people to be called froi or whatever.

OP insisted that they gave me the information I asked for, which they did not. It was simple extrapolation from there. Anyone who pushes the TRANS PEOPLE ARE LIARS WHO WANT TO ASSAULT OUR WOMEN IN BATHROOMS narrative are right wingers arguing that women and womanhood must be protected, especially from non-existent threats of their own making. Such bathroom assaults statistically do not happen (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8022685/#B21; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8022685/#B27; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8022685/#B42;https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8022685/#B41). Receipts provided, because my position is actually backed up by science.

Since such assaults do not happen in any statistical significance, the argument that those should be the focus of community concern rather than neo-pronoun usage is invalid. Women are not protected by terfs or by insisting that trans people or cis men pretending to be trans should be banned from women's bathrooms (or jails). The only other reason than pearl clutching "protect (white) women" I can think of that OP would insist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is a discomfort with or hated of trans people, and they have convinced themselves that since their imagined scenario has ever happened in the history of humankind it must therefore be an ongoing statistically significant problem that ought to be addressed even though no one can actually find evidence of such a claim. If there is a third option that would make OP seem less of a bigot, I am all ears.

Neither of those should be a community concern because neither poses a significant issue for women or trans people ("neopronouns annoy me" is not a significant issue).

So if it isn't "statistically relevant", which could be caused by lack of information just the way we know rape statistics are all skewered given how little women felt/feel safe to go to the police about it and, in this case, could also be a result of too few alerts as opposed to occurrences, is the pain suffered by the "statistically irrelevant" women not important? Is it okay for them to be attacked while they don't suffer enough for you to believe them? Sorry, but any one case of this is already one case too much. If we're really arguing between how important it is for people to feel ~special about their fake words and the well-being of women of flesh and blood out there, even if it's "three" of them (just because you fail to care enough to see that there are a lot more cases doesn't mean these events are limited to the ones the anon you were talking to presented, as they themselves said they could go on — and they really could). So what, we just shrug it off until this violence becomes "bad enough" instead of acting preemptively? How many women being hurt is enough of a number for you to start caring?

Seriously, this isn't an us x them situation. I DO NOT want trans people to be assaulted, I DO NOT want them not to be able to access a basic need such as a toilet... But I also DO NOT want the price to pay for that to involve women getting hurt, even if it's "just three". Those "just three" have names, families and lives that can be ruined just the same as if they were three thousand or three million. They count, too.

"So if it isn't "statistically relevant", which could be caused by lack of information just the way we know rape statistics are all skewered"

For rape statistics to be skewed they have to exist in the first place. The stats I asked you for DON'T EXIST AT ALL. Ergo they cannot be skewed. Because they don't statistically happen. End of story.

"is the pain suffered by the "statistically irrelevant" women not important?"

Anon above who said it was whataboutism - here you go. "Protecting women"

AYRT. No. No their pain is not statistically important. Just like the hypothetical of being attacked by a lion. Not. Statically. Important. Other people have been attacked in the exact same way by other animals. You ain't special, thinking because YOU were attacked that you can get lions on a ban list. No.

"Is it okay for them to be attacked while they don't suffer enough for you to believe them?"

It's not about one person suffering enough. It's about the phenomenon happening enough to be a problem. A shit ton of people suffer malaria. It does not happen in the US in great numbers, ergo malaria in the US is not a problem. This doesn't mean that malaria is ok, or that the people who suffer from malaria aren't important. It means that it's stupid to focus on fighting malaria in the US.

"Sorry, but any one case of this is already one case too much"

Ok, so are you going to fight for all the other case studies where something horrible happened because of weird circumstances that almost never repeat? No, no you're fighting to make the lives of millions of people objectively WORSE because something happened once. One case is never too much. One case is basically NEVER. And the only reason you don't see that is because you have a personal bias against trans people. You're a bigot.

"(just because you fail to care enough to see that there are a lot more cases doesn't mean these events are limited to the ones the anon you were talking to presented, as they themselves said they could go on — and they really could)"

Where are they? I asked for stats. If there were "a lot more cases" there would be statistics you biggoted fuck.

"Seriously, this isn't an us x them situation. I DO NOT want trans people to be assaulted, I DO NOT want them not to be able to access a basic need such as a toilet..."

This is an us x them situation because you made it so. You DO want trans people to be assaulted. You DO want them to be unable to access basic needs. You want them murdered and raped in large numbers because the alternative is that a cis woman somewhere at some time might be raped by a cis dude pretending to be trans. Because one cis woman = 1000000000 trans women.

All the trans people who have been raped and murdered because of the restrictions placed on them for being trans had names, families and lives that can be ruined. They COUNT. And they're in greater numbers than the women you claim to want to protect.

Fuck you, you fucking fascist.

Like man, if only special snowflake enbies stopped using neopronouns, all the legislation being written up and pushed through to prevent trans people from living would disappear and trans people would be loved and respected by all. It's that easy. You've figured it out.

DA

Maybe you should go read that again, but slower. You seem to have some issues with reading comprehension.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #6286 ]

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

DA

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject